Acidmods
Members Area => News => PS3 News => Topic started by: Sammy on April 09, 2011, 04:06:46 PM
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Im sure a lot of you have heard this but a few days ago hacker Anonymous sent a message to Sony about suing Hackers GeoHot and Graf_chokolo a summary of what the hackers said,
"Congratulations, Sony.
You have now received the undivided attention of Anonymous. Your recent legal action against our fellow hackers, GeoHot and Graf_Chokolo, has not alarmed us, it has been deemed wholly unforgivable....Now you will experience the wrath of Anonymous You saw a hornets' nest, and stuck your penises in it You must face the consequences of your actions,Anonymous style."
Heres the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcSCUU4Fg9k&feature=player_embedded heres some more info
http://anonnews.org/?p=press&a=item&i=787
Sources Ps3-hacks.com anonnews.org
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AWESOME
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was this not posted a few days ago???
plus them hackers are crap one of them already been busted in russia great hackers plus why help a :censored: like geo that takes others stuff that they work really hard on and releases it as his own he broke the law he should pay simple as.
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was this not posted a few days ago???
plus them hackers are crap one of them already been busted in russia great hackers plus why help a :censored: like geo that takes others stuff that they work really hard on and releases it as his own he broke the law he should pay simple as.
i dont think it was, also where did you read this about geo?
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look very far back about geo some sites still have info about it
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yeah its all well and good hating on geo whitetop but the problem is if sony win against him it will set a bad precedence in law. the court case has already set a bad precedence in law in regards to privacy by getting his hosting isp and twitter and facebook and youtube etc to hand over all the personal IP addresses etc of every user who visited his site and videos or tweeted about his site or videos. that precedence now means that if a company decides to sue someone over hacking there hardware or software again then they can now with the precedence thats been set have them fork over all the info of people who have visited that site etc and if sony wins then thats even worse. it would potentially give companies like sony and nintendo etc the power to go after anyone who hacks there consoles or operating systems aka US and any other modder/hacker out there.
now that is a scary thought that i really do not want to come true and im sure most of you dont - sony should be stopped in there tirade against people who like to tinker
p.s. i bet sony are kicking themselves over removing the otherOS feature now as that is where this all started lol
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they should have not put the otheros on from start
plus never through of it that way but is this kind of modding really that bad? as it don't lead to piracy just making your stuff look better.
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the problem is a lot of this stuff starts with one domino falling and then it is a knock on affect. a bit like data caps on smartphones in the uk everyone used to have unlimited data as no one wanted to be the first to put in a cap but as soon as one company put a cap in place they all followed suit over the coming months and now the 3 network is the only one still offering unlimited data.
but it would make things like cfw on the psp, wii, 360 at risk and put at risk the creation of personal backups or theming of your device etc precedence in law is a scary thing
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Lots of info regarding GeoHot's defense and the class action lawsuit against Sony (otherOS removal).
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110402000830503
I don't understand how someone could be upset with GeoHot and talk down about him. Thanks to his work and many other hackers works, we've got access to service modes and custom firmwares. Mods aren't just in cans of spraypaint, it involves a lot of codebreaking trademarked and copyrighted software that the public doesn't - but should - have access to, and writing replacement code to give you the freedom to use your hardware as you desire.
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I agree Robin 100%, but there is more. Based on the dockets and how the case plays out it will affect what we can and can't do with our purchased items once we take them home from the store!
Sony feels as if your RENTING that PS3 system that you bought. At least that's what they are pushing for if they win. Take some of that with a grain of salt but really read up on the case and the dockets on Groklaw, I'm not kidding people get informed.
I hope that Geohot is not lying for our sake! However even if you don't like him you really should hate Sony more. I'll be damed if I'm told I can't take a screwdriver to something that I spent my money on. :faint:
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Its all well and good to be hatin on Sony, but its misplaced.
Mac is right, if the precedence is set about acquiring personal traceable info, its like giving big companies a legal loop-hole to get your personal private information WHEN YOU ARE NOT THE SUSPECT! In the US, the law makes it clear that an individuals privacy is to be maintained unless enough suspicion has been built to WARRANT break that individuals privacy. If this precedent is set, it means your 'virtual privacy' will be violated simply because you read an article on a web-page somewhere, that Sony could have the right to gain access not only to your IP transactions, but maybe even financial transactions as well (did you ever buy one of those Jailbreak clones?).
As far as your 'right' to the hardware you purchased:
You purchased a box that plays games. It has some added features. But the main core promise of the parent company was to provide you a game console to play legally purchased games. Even the crap about 'backups' is total *****. If you wearout a game, buy another. Its like saying you only ever have to buy one golf ball for your entire life. You paid $XXX for a box to insert your game disc into. Sony provided that. If you want to change your theme, go right ahead. Sony only bans you from PSN, and they have the right to do so. Once you have altered the hardware, they have the right to make sure your custom box does not screw-up thier network, nor are they responsible for the condition of your box since you altered it. But you also realize that 99% of the hackers only do it so that piracy can be had. Its the reason 99.99% of people alter thier box to begin with. Stop lying about any f******* story otherwise. There have been how many people who even knew about OtherOS? Compare that to how many jailbreaks have been sold in one year. Its in the millions. Its damn near close to how many PS3 have been manufactured.
Sony created the playstation as a competitive game console. They have done thier due diligence to provide a quality product. All businesses follow the same practice. They provide a product or service wanted by the customer. In those terms, they have done an excellent job. They have the right to protect themselves from thieves. Any business would. Considering the broad effect of piracy, it is no wonder they are suing the crap out of the self-proclaimed hackers who opened up the copy-protection they have. It will end up being a deterent in the longrun.
As for your customizations that do not have anything to do with priacy, where is the petition to Sony asking for them to provide it? Why does eveyone think it can only be had by breaking the integrity of the original hardare instead of asking the vendor to provide it?
And before anyone hops onto 'Sony deserves to get squashed', think about how fun it would be if your/your families/your friends emplyers all went out of business because some crap company in another country forced them out of business with outright illegal methods. Sony has only done what was asked of them in the first place: Make a PS3 to play games, games provided by other companies that need Sony to provide protection against piracy.
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Its all well and good to be hatin on Sony, but its misplaced.
Mac is right, if the precedence is set about acquiring personal traceable info, its like giving big companies a legal loop-hole to get your personal private information WHEN YOU ARE NOT THE SUSPECT! In the US, the law makes it clear that an individuals privacy is to be maintained unless enough suspicion has been built to WARRANT break that individuals privacy. If this precedent is set, it means your 'virtual privacy' will be violated simply because you read an article on a web-page somewhere, that Sony could have the right to gain access not only to your IP transactions, but maybe even financial transactions as well (did you ever buy one of those Jailbreak clones?).
As far as your 'right' to the hardware you purchased:
You purchased a box that plays games. It has some added features. But the main core promise of the parent company was to provide you a game console to play legally purchased games. Even the crap about 'backups' is total *****. If you wearout a game, buy another. Its like saying you only ever have to buy one golf ball for your entire life. You paid $XXX for a box to insert your game disc into. Sony provided that. If you want to change your theme, go right ahead. Sony only bans you from PSN, and they have the right to do so. Once you have altered the hardware, they have the right to make sure your custom box does not screw-up thier network, nor are they responsible for the condition of your box since you altered it. But you also realize that 99% of the hackers only do it so that piracy can be had. Its the reason 99.99% of people alter thier box to begin with. Stop lying about any f******* story otherwise. There have been how many people who even knew about OtherOS? Compare that to how many jailbreaks have been sold in one year. Its in the millions. Its damn near close to how many PS3 have been manufactured.
Sony created the playstation as a competitive game console. They have done thier due diligence to provide a quality product. All businesses follow the same practice. They provide a product or service wanted by the customer. In those terms, they have done an excellent job. They have the right to protect themselves from thieves. Any business would. Considering the broad effect of piracy, it is no wonder they are suing the crap out of the self-proclaimed hackers who opened up the copy-protection they have. It will end up being a deterent in the longrun.
As for your customizations that do not have anything to do with priacy, where is the petition to Sony asking for them to provide it? Why does eveyone think it can only be had by breaking the integrity of the original hardare instead of asking the vendor to provide it?
And before anyone hops onto 'Sony deserves to get squashed', think about how fun it would be if your/your families/your friends emplyers all went out of business because some crap company in another country forced them out of business with outright illegal methods. Sony has only done what was asked of them in the first place: Make a PS3 to play games, games provided by other companies that need Sony to provide protection against piracy.
wow, that was awesome. i agree with you lol
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hahahhaha Sony is pretending you have a mortgage on your PS3 and they own rights until you pay them 20x the price for it. hhahahaa
I'll put an xbox360 in a PS3 case make a video and called it hacked and watch sony go ape-:censored: over a stupid video of a 'hacked' console, then they'll get all my personal info and then raid my house and realize it was a case mod. hahahaaha
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hey hazer i agree with you 99% of your argument! xD and specialy about the geohot situation that might put a "precedence".
and yes all they say that "backups" is bull:censored:! they only people who actually benefit from this is developers who are independent. and alot of people who have a old ps3 (phat) may of also bought it for one of its key features that was "run linux". Which i did. sony advertised it that one of its key features. But what i dont diagree that sony progressively takes away features with fimware progressions. Ie, linux, drive laser power, cpu temp modification. (yes sonny :censored:ed with old ps3 to increase the power of the blue-ray drive diode, effectively reducing the lifespan, and having to buy another one u.u) and yes alot of people knew about other OS. the US military bought ps3 to make computer clusters. and acoridng to sony the reason why they took off this feature was because IBM was losing buisness with the military for IBM computers.
and when people say that it was geohots fought that piracy started. your wrong. He patched the Lv2 Hv to not play pirated games. that means that he put alot of work so people wont be pirates.
the annonymus team is just doing something stupid. they are doing DoS attacts on sonys servers and their domains. and in consequence, People in PSN are suffering. i understand they want to attack sonypictures or the main sony website, or even the sony PSN store, but not the actual people using PSN, ive suffered poor connection along with others thoughout the week.
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Well, it hasn't been Anon causing connectivity issues.
http://www.anonnews.org/?p=press&a=item&i=797
This was posted on April 6th.
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well for me personally PSN has bin unplayable ever since they started their attacks, and sony even tweeted out that they had "spontaneous server maintenance, sorry for the inconvenience"
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I dunno this all seems like some big messy blob of crap now.
Sony will try to do as they please and yes GeoHot (??) getting caught was kind of a big thing i guess (although i still believe that he did in fact work with a modding team and then released all the data early so he'd get the credit).
But the point of this is that Anonymous is trying to prove a point by attacking Sony in all the wrong places... i mean doesn't it seem kinda strange that a group who would willingly say that they are trying to fight to keep the "flow of free information" going
by attacking servers that could and do help aid the flow of that very same free information?
criticize me if you like but im just stating my valid opinion.
P.S. I agree with the fact that legal "backup's" is bull:censored:.
Also anyone else notice that when you tried to decline the new legal agreement proposed by SCEA that pops up on the PSN store page it doesn't work? That it just takes you back to the agreement page again.
Just wondering cuz in the email that they sent to all PSN members who were registered before the change took affect stated that "if you should so choose to not accept the new agreement that you would have your money returned to you" and so far that has not happened.
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I cannot agree with this comment anymore on youtube
We are anonymous. We do not forgive. We do not pull chicks. We do live in our parents basements.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that Geo helped provide the information pirates use to steal games. He knew that his information would be used to bypass copyright protections (it already was being bypassed, he released the info to make it easier). I know it was not his intent, but you cannot provide the means under the guise of some arbitrary little-used feature.
I may be flamed for this statement: Homebrew is not worth providing the entire world with an easy way to pirate games. Geo and others should have kept thier **** to themselves. They believe they are championing some kind of revolt against a corporate monster, thier actions have done nothing more than provide a way for chinese shmuks to make a cheap dime off PS3 owners at the expense of Sony and the game developers. Well geuss what, the reason they are still in business is because Sony and the game developers are not eating that cost.....WE ARE!!!! The reason games are $50+ is because of piracy! It takes alot less to manufacture games than it did in the past, that cost should be transfered down to the customer. But since piracy creates more cost in engineering hardware, engineering software protections, and absorbed into the base cost of a game due to lost sales, all of those costs go to the end user, the customer, which is us.
As a customer, I can tell you right now: You want linux, build a ****ing PC and ST*U. Your linux is not worth my games being $30 over-priced. Your homebrew can be played on a PC. Your custom themes can be provided by Sony if you ask them. I am sick of having to pay for your arbitrary desires while chinese companies rape our profit in jailbreak/R4/DSsun/Xcuter sales all because your 'hero' made copyright protection breaking public.
And if you hate Sony so much, ST*U and dont buy one. Same goes for the rest. Most of you dont realize how many crappy system there are out there. These garbage game consoles never reach the US/UK/non-3rd world countries. But they do exist, DX sells the handhelds. If Sony/MS/Nintnedo shut thier doors, there will still be consoles but they would be the worst thing you could ever imagine.
There was a thread 2 days ago about eveyone saying they wanted start thier own business and become rich. Well lets sya you got what you wanted. How would you fel if someone stole it out for under you with chinese clones and illegal sales? Any answer other than "they should be thrown in jail" will make you a hypocrite.
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Hazer by your standards farmers should be held accountable for multiple attacks on the world trade center because they are the reason the explosives that were used are well known.
Your thinking does not add up.
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In sumary:
You cannot have your linux/homebrew unless you open the system to piracy.
If you open the system to piracy, the cost of the system/games goes up.
Your homebrew/linux does NOT need to be on the game system. It can be done on PC hardware (its even easier).
Now ask every PS3/XBOX/Wii owner in the world to take a vote: Which would you rather have?
A: Linux/homebrew on your system.
B: All the games cost less than $25 from now on.
I am making an ducated geuss that MOST console owners care more about the money than the homebrew.
Now lets ask the hackers who they do this for really? They do it for pride and 'internet street credit'. They do not do it for the masses.
Hazer by your standards farmers should be held accountable for multiple attacks on the world trade center because they are the reason the explosives that were used are well known.
Your thinking does not add up.
Look up the term 'entrapment'.
Another analogy: Guns do not kill people, people kill people. But if you put a gun into someones hand that you KNOW has the intent to break the law, then you are now just as responsible. That term is 'accomplice'.
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The thing is games have been 50-60 bucks for new block busters for as long as i can remember. By your assumptions, with MILLIONS of psjailbreaks being sold games should cost some where around 100 a piece , because they just keep going up right?
You can pick up some garbage games for 19.99 a year after they are out. Good games , basically stay the same 50 - 60 $ price tag.
If you want to substantiate your assumptions then lets see some graphs of game prices showing the curve you claim.
Steam is a great example of anti piracy in working order. Their games are still 50 - 60 $ and you dont even get a box , cd, or manual. IF what your saying had any basis then steam would open block buster game sales at 19.99 to encourage purchase threw secure channels. They dont because the price is nothing to do with piracy. You can go buy BF2 for about 20$ , not because it wasnt pirated because it is old.
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wow... i see that you are quite passionate about this, but i am having a hard time coming up with a reason why homebrew should be sacrificed so that game costs will come down and sony profits will go up. it is completely illogical and unfortanately like Xsavior says it doesnt add up. In 1995 I paid $60 for a copy of street fighter 2 on the SNES, which was outrageous at the time, however are u going to sit there and tell me the same amount of work went into SSF2 as did black ops? the price was the same, so where is this inflation from piracy? The truth is what we get for $60 is a fricken deal compared to what $60 got you 10-20 years ago... which does not account for piracy or the hundreds of additional programmers that helped make it. game prices are based on market capacity, not piracy. you will never see game prices drop as long as the market supports $60 games, has nothing to do with piracy... NOTHING.
Sony is not going out of business because of piracy,,, does a movie theatre go out of business because they have a full crowd and only got paid for %80 of the seats? no they go out of business because they dont fill the seats. Sony is filling the :censored: out of the seats currently.
Hazer by your logic, we should outlaw guns to prevent crimes and murders... take away the right provided for you by the constituiton of the United states of America. Sounds easy enough right? Wrong what comes with unarmed population? more crime for one, and probably much worse is that the government will not fear its people, the power will not exist for a potential uprising or a massacre at capital hill. Can you imagine congress if they had no fear of reprocussions from working americans? Taxes go up, policing goes up, next thing you know we live in an even more :censored:ed up society the we have now.... the rich pay even less taxes and the poor pay even more. Make unlocking your hardware illegal and watch all the law abiding citizens stop doing homebrew and alll the pirates not stop pirating... what the :censored: do you think is going to happen the pirates are going to stop and the prices are going down? comeon
Now VGs and guns are not a direct analogy, however pay attention to the parrallels that do exist.... you want to pay less for your games... fat chance that will ever happen, if anything piracy keeps them honest, because truth of the matter is that 99% of homebrew enabled machines play piracy, but I would put money on the fact that less then 10% of all machines are jailbroken to allow homebrew or piracy... Just because some tard bought all the stock of a microcontroller does not mean that 3 million devices have been sold to unlock hardware, just means 3 million devices were made. You know what keeps prices down... the fear that if they raise prices, that 10% of hacked hardware would grow exponentially into a number that actually would threaten the viability of the software in the market.
I feel like technologially savvy members who understand how to break a locked device see how easy it is and assume the whole world is doing it. Unfortanately my time as with the vast majority of others, is worth much more then figuring out how to steal a $60 product, I would rather buy the game and focus my efforts elsewhere as i do along with %99 of the people I know who game. However I like the idea, much like I like my 9mm on my hip, that i do have the power to stick it to whoever wants to push me or test my resolve, because i will be damned if someone treads on me, espeacially a corporation whos ponzi type of business wants to blame my peers for why they are not able to meet "projected growth." Just like with social security, the system will eventually cave in because there is no new growth, and sony is seeing that along with many corporations being run by supposedly intelligent people.
Piracy is bad, but so are guns, and get rid of either and you will see a much worse outcome then you are capable of envisioning.
I am sorry but as a programmer the responsiblity to make a product that wont be hacked is on me, unfortanately being reality based i know that if i coded it, then someone else could to, and could reverse that code. Soo why is it that Sony and M$ cant code a device that wont be broken? Because they are Lazy and would rather dump resources into commercials on saturday morning then protecting their product. (conspiracy? could be) This gen devices learned from the dreamcasts failures however instead of innovating they recycled PC tech that is understood and hacked even more then on consoles.
Piracy is bad, I for one would prefer a world where it didnt exist, however taking someones rights away to protects the rights of others is much worse, and can be detrimental to all aspects of consumerism in ways that are unconcievable to us now but will be very clear in the future. Lastly, since when should a corporation like Sony be able to use the courts as a way fix their own shortcomings, they had the ability to develop a system that was secure, however when they didnt make it good enough, they think the courts should fix it, and that is not going to work, people are going to do as they wish as been shown over and over again throughout the history of the world regardless of what is law or not. thats a fact jack!
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i agree now 100% of this guy! well i do agree 100% the same with prohibition in the U.S. the moment it was illegalized criminals used this to make money and fuel crime.
piracy does not make a difference in price, the market determined 60$ a famous title name was a good selling point they suck now we will have games for at least 50 years in that price.
and the saying it true about guns, guns dont kill people people do. and its true, citizens in the us can own guns, but criminals will always find a way go get them. when the dam liberals try to take the guns away from the civilians then that were pandemonium will occur.
well hazer before Geohot there was piracy already, with the psjailbreak. then Geohot put out his CFW, he purpusly made it so people cant pirate, during the same time the team Failoverflow also was hacking the ps3, they were going to publish there tools publicly, while geohot never actually publish his tools at the beginning.
and you should know a hackers motivation, its not about laws, or piracy or cheating companies, its about the trill of hacking something though to be unhackable and sharing it with the world.
@802Chives i agree with you 100 present.
but getting back to the topic, Team anonymous is hitting innocent bystanders, if they want to get noticed they should hit there pocketbooks with attacks on there main websites.
P.s. thanks to jailbreaking now i am exploring cod4 mp_maps and trying to code a program to port them over, and soon i might be able to port maps from the PC, to a ps3. who would not like to play custom maps in there system? :censored: i do! xD
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not all attempts to protect investment are legit - if Sony wanted to protect their products, they don't have to sell them - once they sell them, property in the units sold passes to the buyer, who can do whatever the want with it. ~Theres a separate matter of intellectual property, which is not owned by whoever bought it in the same way (they receive a limited license to use the IP) - attempts to lock down the physical hardware like anti-circumvention measures... are specifically protected under the DMCA, but there are specific exemptions to that protection kinda like iphone jailbreaking
http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
just my 2 cents.. so how this will all play out shows what customers want
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wow... i see that you are quite passionate about this, but i am having a hard time coming up with a reason why homebrew should be sacrificed so that game costs will come down and sony profits will go up. it is completely illogical and unfortanately like Xsavior says it doesnt add up. In 1995 I paid $60 for a copy of street fighter 2 on the SNES, which was outrageous at the time, however are u going to sit there and tell me the same amount of work went into SSF2 as did black ops? the price was the same, so where is this inflation from piracy? The truth is what we get for $60 is a fricken deal compared to what $60 got you 10-20 years ago... which does not account for piracy or the hundreds of additional programmers that helped make it. game prices are based on market capacity, not piracy. you will never see game prices drop as long as the market supports $60 games, has nothing to do with piracy... NOTHING.
Sony is not going out of business because of piracy,,, does a movie theatre go out of business because they have a full crowd and only got paid for %80 of the seats? no they go out of business because they dont fill the seats. Sony is filling the :censored: out of the seats currently.
Hazer by your logic, we should outlaw guns to prevent crimes and murders... take away the right provided for you by the constituiton of the United states of America. Sounds easy enough right? Wrong what comes with unarmed population? more crime for one, and probably much worse is that the government will not fear its people, the power will not exist for a potential uprising or a massacre at capital hill. Can you imagine congress if they had no fear of reprocussions from working americans? Taxes go up, policing goes up, next thing you know we live in an even more :censored:ed up society the we have now.... the rich pay even less taxes and the poor pay even more. Make unlocking your hardware illegal and watch all the law abiding citizens stop doing homebrew and alll the pirates not stop pirating... what the :censored: do you think is going to happen the pirates are going to stop and the prices are going down? comeon
Now VGs and guns are not a direct analogy, however pay attention to the parrallels that do exist.... you want to pay less for your games... fat chance that will ever happen, if anything piracy keeps them honest, because truth of the matter is that 99% of homebrew enabled machines play piracy, but I would put money on the fact that less then 10% of all machines are jailbroken to allow homebrew or piracy... Just because some tard bought all the stock of a microcontroller does not mean that 3 million devices have been sold to unlock hardware, just means 3 million devices were made. You know what keeps prices down... the fear that if they raise prices, that 10% of hacked hardware would grow exponentially into a number that actually would threaten the viability of the software in the market.
I feel like technologially savvy members who understand how to break a locked device see how easy it is and assume the whole world is doing it. Unfortanately my time as with the vast majority of others, is worth much more then figuring out how to steal a $60 product, I would rather buy the game and focus my efforts elsewhere as i do along with %99 of the people I know who game. However I like the idea, much like I like my 9mm on my hip, that i do have the power to stick it to whoever wants to push me or test my resolve, because i will be damned if someone treads on me, espeacially a corporation whos ponzi type of business wants to blame my peers for why they are not able to meet "projected growth." Just like with social security, the system will eventually cave in because there is no new growth, and sony is seeing that along with many corporations being run by supposedly intelligent people.
Piracy is bad, but so are guns, and get rid of either and you will see a much worse outcome then you are capable of envisioning.
I am sorry but as a programmer the responsiblity to make a product that wont be hacked is on me, unfortanately being reality based i know that if i coded it, then someone else could to, and could reverse that code. Soo why is it that Sony and M$ cant code a device that wont be broken? Because they are Lazy and would rather dump resources into commercials on saturday morning then protecting their product. (conspiracy? could be) This gen devices learned from the dreamcasts failures however instead of innovating they recycled PC tech that is understood and hacked even more then on consoles.
Piracy is bad, I for one would prefer a world where it didnt exist, however taking someones rights away to protects the rights of others is much worse, and can be detrimental to all aspects of consumerism in ways that are unconcievable to us now but will be very clear in the future. Lastly, since when should a corporation like Sony be able to use the courts as a way fix their own shortcomings, they had the ability to develop a system that was secure, however when they didnt make it good enough, they think the courts should fix it, and that is not going to work, people are going to do as they wish as been shown over and over again throughout the history of the world regardless of what is law or not. thats a fact jack!
:clap: bravo! that was really well put!
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yeah i dont think people should pirate games but there are ways the companies could get around the argument for homebrew etc etc and thats to make the development tools to be able to write your own apps and sign them for your console either free or very low cost then people cant argue its because they want homebrew and the big companies could stop people using the backup argument for games if they each had a way that if god forbid one of your games whent through the :censored:ter you could swap it via mail for a replacement disk for like £1 or £2 as i would happily pay that if my disk got forked but i refuse to pay another £30+ for a game that i already bought. but unfortunatly they are unlikly to do that as well companyies are greedy and arnt happy with just enougth money they want more and more and bigger and bigger profits.
p.s. my ps3 and xbox are stock the only console i backup my games on is the wii as my sister and family use that and well they have a tendancy to leave disks out which my dog perceives as frisbys. also sorry for the bad spelling
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oh dear... here we go again... again...
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oh dear... here we go again... again...
yep... I'm honestly getting tired of this argument...
Personally, I think geohot is a glory-whoring douche and he's getting what's been coming to him. Karma is a :censored:...
Argue all you want about the reasons for sony doing this, but I never once heard about sony suing DAX and he essentially did the exact same thing (though he did it 10k times better and quieter)... if you ask me this isn't about piracy,hacking, homebrew, OtherOS, or whatever other thing you wanna make it about , this is about openly spitting in sony's face, flipping them the bird and then taunting them to come after you for it... wtf did he expect when he went 100% public and exposed their security methods and the inner workings at a freaking convention? glory-whoring... that's what it's all about... if he hadn't made a bid deal about it and sought the fame he always does, they probably would've left him alone, but the second you put a face to the name they're gonna :censored: all over it... every other 'dev' for any other platform is a name-less, face-less entity online. sure it wouldn't be too hard for a major corporation to actually find that info, but when you just give it to them you make yourself an easier target. it's like going to a gun range with a target painted on your shirt and getting pissed when you get shot, wtf would you expect?
What he did does not fall under any DMCA exemption, not even the encryption research or security testing exemptions.
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Wow, this topic went a little crazy lol its only been up for a day and theres like 20 replies and like 700 views. :w00t:
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First: I LOVE lively debates! I want you all to make sure I am only arguing purely for the intellectual enjoyment! This is all in good nature!
On to the rebutal:
I agree that Sony does not have the right to gain access to privat einformation. They should not be able to set this precedent.
Guns: I said people have the right to own guns. I never said they shouldnt. But since you own a 9mm, you know as well as I what it takes to legally purchase that gun: A full background check. Why is that? Why cant a dealer sell handguns to anyone who walks in? Your arguement supports that when compared to this situation (copy-right protection voilation). Dealers cannot sell to people with questionable backgrounds because it would be civily irresponsible to put a handgun in the possesion of an individual who will likely use it for illegal purposes. That dealer would be just as responsible as the person pulling the trigger. Its the same as the adult who gets a minor drunk and lets them drive a car willingly, they are also responsible for the damage coused by that minor. The same is said for a bystander who witnesses a crime and does nothing. There is a responsibility we all share as human beings to keep people from harming themselves.
If a hacker shares his knowledge with the world knowing full well it will ABSOLUTELY be used for breaking copy-right protection, then he/she is just as responsible for piracy if they had marketed it themselves. They knew full well the impact of what they did. And ALL hackers are only in it to one-up each other. There is no self-less motivation, its about showing off.
As for the impact of piracy: Dont bring PC games into this for now, that has its own market dynamic. But look at the history of piracy: Atari was hacked by elite people with breadboarded materials, only people with alot of electronics skills knew how and the information was pre-internet and not largely publicized. There was virtually no effect on the market.
The Sony PS1 was the first victim of public piracy. At this time, not many poeple knew howto program microchips and dvelopers did not release alot of public information (it was mostly sent via snail-mail, internet was still dial-up at this time). Also, at this time CD burners were first introduced and cost $500. Burnable dics were $2 a piece. This was extremely inconvenient for every PS1 owner to take advantage of. So lets look at what this cost Sony: They changed the motherboard revision 13 times in 6 years. Do you have any idea how much it costs to design a system revision, test it for durablility for at least a year, change the entire manufacturing line to accomodate a new part (manufacture, pick-and-place, test machines, all of this 20 years ago)? Tens of millions each time. I worked for a large electronics manufacturer, I am not exagerating. A bomb-scare would cause a 2 million dollar cost to production in order to shut it down for a day. Thats todays standards where the setups have been greatly improved for efficiency since the 90s. So does Sony eat these costs? Everyone thinks that the manufacturer will go out of business. No. They simply transfer the cost to the customer. If the cost to manufacture a product becomes too high, customers will not buy it and the manufacturer will simply drop the product and manufacture something else.
Yes, games cost $60 a year ago. The cost to manufacture the media also cost 5 times what it does today. Remeber, DL DVD used to be close to $8 a disc, now they are a quarter. But the games have stayed the same. There is the influence of what price the market will bear, but competition also drives prices. My first PC cost $3000 in 1992. My second PC cost me $1000 in 1996. Subsequent PCs cost me $500, $400, my last one cost me $275. So why do games stay the same? Everything else has droppe din price, even the consoles themselves come down in price (once hte manufacuring process has stablilized and improved for efficiency). Why does the game stay $60? There is so much effort put into anti-piracy, it takes too much engineering effort on a constant basis.
Your turn :)
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even though i would like to fuel this topic, i think i agree with hyper and jrfhoutx. this topic is not about piracy or the philosophy behind it. although my personal belives lies more with chives802 then with jrfhoutx.
hey hazer i love a intellectual arguments and topics too, but unfortunately jrfhoutx once believed that another previous topic was breaking one of the rules so it got locked. so i dont think this is a good topic to start :/
hum but i have to disagree about the part of the cost of dldvds and other such media, the actual production manufacturer will cost between 10-20 cents. the way that "official disc" are made are with a diecast were the prexi-class is coded and copied by a master disk.
"Yes, games cost $60 a year ago. The cost to manufacture the media also cost 5 times what it does today. Remeber, DL DVD used to be close to $8 a disc, now they are a quarter. But the games have stayed the same. There is the influence of what price the market will bear, but competition also drives prices. My first PC cost $3000 in 1992. My second PC cost me $1000 in 1996. Subsequent PCs cost me $500, $400, my last one cost me $275. So why do games stay the same? Everything else has droppe din price, even the consoles themselves come down in price (once hte manufacturing process has stablilized and improved for efficiency). Why does the game stay $60? There is so much effort put into anti-piracy, it takes too much engineering effort on a constant basis."
but you make a good argument u have me connvincet is some part man. :)
one Q tho: if he (geohot) knew he that this could cause piracy then why did he spend time just to patch lv2 to not run pirated games? i mean is like turning a fully automatic weapon in a way that it can only shoot in semi. but not all gun owners are capable of chaning it back, like a gunsmith,
this would of only benefited developers. its like sharing information, just because we know how a gun works does not mean that they should not be made, if you know what i mean? sorry if i should confusing..
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also this was not the first time sony has it out for hackers, they sued some collage kid that was modding a walkman into a ipod case.
they also sued some hackers that hacked a little robotic dog that sony created, which just made the doggy do different thing. after that sony setteled and agreed as long as sony had the rights to thouse peoples software.
then they got sued for theirs software they used to install in a computer whitch was a root Kit. (if anyone of you know a root kit is a no no)... i mean its a :censored:ing NO NO. over millions of computers got infected due to this software sony unconcently installed on computers to prevent "piracy". long shot shot, people won and sony had to recall all there defective CD.
idk but if they are using every way to prevent piracy then how and who draws the line?
ALSO! i believe that anonymous DoS attacks are getting attention of international police, but not much from sony. So i guess they just run over the inovent bystandard withough even making sony flinch. :/ useless man :dntknw:
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This discussion hasn't reached the same point of stubborn heated rage that the last topic reached. the last topic that got locked was not a back and forth discussion, (unlike this topic) it was several people on opposite sides of the argument reiterating the same points over and over with neither side listening to or acknowledging the others points, that's not a discussion).
And please, when I have not brought my personal opinion of piracy into this conversation, don't make a comparison of it and don't do it for me, I can speak for myself.
one Q tho: if he (geohot) knew he that this could cause piracy then why did he spend time just to patch lv2 to not run pirated games? i mean is like turning a fully automatic weapon in a way that it can only shoot in semi. but not all gun owners are capable of chaning it back, like a gunsmith,
look patched lv2 or not, he knew people would use it to pirate, otherwise he never would've patched it. by patching it he acknowledged that people would use what he was releasing in order to pirate. he's not always the brightest bulb, but not so naive as to think that no one would take his hack, tear it down and remove the lv2 patch.
its like sharing information, just because we know how a gun works does not mean that they should not be made, if you know what i mean?
Yes I know what you mean and no this is nothing like that, that's not even a valid comparison. maybe if you had said that "use of said item can lead to death, does not mean that said item should not be made :: use of said hack can lead to piracy does not mean said hack should not be made" that is a valid comparison, however the argument is still bull:censored:. it's not an argument over whether or not it should be available or not because it allows the possibility of piracy, it's a matter of whether the availability of the hack itself is legal or not. (and if you ask me that is all going to depend on the content of it)
as for the guns... anyone with an understanding of how their weapon operates and the knowledge to fully disassemble and reassemble it could turn a semiauto into an auto and vice versa (at least they should be able to, as any gun owner should know how to strip their weapon and maintain it, otherwise they really don't understand it and probably should reconsider owning it... on the other hand doing so is highly illegal and very unsafe). again, nothing like what is happening right now...
So, lets find a different comparison please?
Now, back on topic... Anonymous...
Personally I say :censored: those idiots, at this point let them get arrested and file charges against them for the illegal acts they commit. what they are doing is illegal, and I for one did not ask for a bunch of pussies who have to hide behind anonymity to fight for me. pulling this crap isn't going to get them anywhere and it's not going to help geohot or the cause, if anything it's only going to hurt it. if you want to fight, then you need to man up and fight it in court, at least Geo has the balls to do that. seriously these guys need to take a few courses in logic as they seem to be incapable of it. everything they do is full of double standards, twisted logic, and ungodly arrogance.
You have abused the judicial system in an attempt to censor information about how your products work.Your suppression of this information is motivated by corporate greed and the desire for complete control over the actions of individuals who purchase and use your products, at least when those actions threaten to undermine the corrupt stranglehold you seek to maintain over copywrong, oops, "copyright".
Sony hasn't abused the judicial system, and nowhere does it say that sony has to share with anyone how their products work. to think you are owed that information or that you have a right to it or to share it with anyone is :censored:ing arrogant as hell.
Uh, yeah :censored:heads, welcome to capitalism. that's the way it :censored:ing works, they own it and have every right to protect their investment. corporate greed? yeah, have you not been paying attention your whole lives? there is no such thing as a corporation that isn't greedy.
Go back and hide in your mom's basement "Anonymous," if I want someone to "fight" for my rights I'd rather it be GeoHot, even if he is a glory-:censored:, at least he has the balls to show his face, give you his real name, and fight it the way it should be fought, in the courts and by the law. He at least give hackers a halfway decent reputation in the eyes of the general public, and doesn't resort to childish illegal tactics to fight precedence...
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well you know anonymous is just made of people and you all will agree there are people that are headstrong and think something should be one way; and one way only... If you've ever read the book called "The Jungle" which was written about meat packing in the United States in the late 1800's which the book describes how people died and got diseases and gross descriptions of unregulated meat industry back in the day.
Right now currently we are facing a similar ordeal of copyright and development issues with software and hardware. People think that if you buy the item its YOURS (well in fact i agree). When those people want something they can't have they whine about it until they get it, Dos attacks will diminish because people will get bored, more hackers will eventually find more exploits, and Sony is going to have to compromise some day. I'm just saying Sony will crack by ether the people or copyright regulation.
If a hacker blatantly publishes and exploit and shows everyone... if they get sued, its their own damn fault period.
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@ jrfhoutx Lol a men to that on man. XD annonymus my ass. Hahahha
Well again I'm not woo savvy on argument sake. I just like coding and thanks to the recent jailbreak I've bin able to able to run code on my ps3. Soon I will be able to play my own cotom maps Ive made on a pc to my ps3.
Dude hackers don't care are about laws. we have a different drive. The drive to just have knowledge. It's true geohot drive must just be pure ego. But atleast he showed his gave to Cory. And even though I don't agree that he should be the face for hackers. I applaud that we atleast have one. Do u think a hacker would waste all his time just coding to let millions of people steal?. And most of you could diss on geohot or teamoverflow for even releasing their tools. But the tools were ment for developers not endusers. Yes there will always be some developers with the intent of "backups" but that's just a small portion.
Can anyone of you go tough a system and determine were the buffer of the rrft key are in a ram and then looking tough that determine the lv2 hypervisor keys? Or can you guys even code from scratch a way to handle a handshake of lv2 to hv0 to give full controll of both cell processors to the secondary code in order to run linux?
These guys have skills that many of you guys don't posses. bashing guys like geohot and other guys that dissreguard the law in some shape or form just for the pure pleasure of hacking is not right.
But bashing on people like anonymous, well I would prefer that they did not exist. And come on. A dam DoS attack on a website? Thats the :censored:ing 2005 . Now we are in 2011. Do some harm pisoning atack on there webties and make there dam SQL suffer until there servers clash.or even try to do something effecting there pocket book. I'f this team will get in truble well might as well make it a big deal.
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Idk if this is just me but I feel this conversation about hackers and law but not actualy have people talking about the topic?
Like being a elementary teacher and hearing how politicians arguing how student learn to cut the budget. It just seems werd. Lol
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I've never said I had the skills, and no I can't pick out the buffer, or determine the hypervisor keys, but that doesn't matter tbh; and I applaud these guys and appreciate them for the skills they do posess, however, if you (or they, or whoever) have a complete disregard for the law, then you have no room to complain when it comes back and bites you in the ass.
bashing guys like geohot and other guys that dissreguard the law in some shape or form just for the pure pleasure of hacking is not right.
Like hell it's not right. you break the law you deserve the societal scorn that comes with it. if you break any other law that's what happens, society scorns you and holds it against you for the rest of your life. I broke the law when I was a kid and I was arrested and convicted, and 15 years later, even though I'm not that same person, it still follows me around and and people look down on me and judge me, but I don't :censored: about it; it was my choice and it's something that I live with. that's how society works, pressure from your peers to maintain the status quo and abide by the law; and if you don't no one lets you forget it lest you decide to regress. just because you feel that there is a grey area around a certain law does not mean there really is and does not mean you shouldn't be judged for breaking that law.
knowledge simply for the sake of knowledge is what has gotten people into this mess. just because one can doesn't mean one should...
Knowledge without conscience is but the ruine of the soule.
— François Rabelais
All knowledge has an ultimate goal. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is, say what you will, nothing but a dismal begging of the question.
— Miguel de Unamuno
"There are those who seek knowledge for the sake of knowledge; that is Curiosity.
There are those who seek knowledge to be known by others; that is Vanity.
There are those who seek knowledge in order to serve; that is Love."
— Bernard of Clairvaux
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Ive noticed a trend.
Any one who has written and released any thing, for any thing supports geohot to some varying degree. They know more of the facts of how this when down and understand that something so simple as painting your case could be impacted by this.
Most people, I affectionately call sheeople , who dont write any code, don't support him and bad mouth him. Usually the facts are lost on this bunch.
Im guessing the second group is making the assumption that some one else will step up and release code for them. But the reality is its still about 3% of the population who CAN reverse tech . There has been no giant explosion of people who can do this, more its been an explosion of people who can being willing to take credit for their work.
This topic really frustrates me. I think I could spend the entire day disproving each of your arguments line by line. And whats worse is the only reason you dont know is you didnt bother to ask.
1. What are Geohots true accomplishments?
2. What contests has he won?
3. What national publications have recognized him?
4. What did Geohot say his feelings on piracy are?
5. How can geohot be responsible for others actions.
I can't justify copy/pasting the facts from google here. When and if you guys do some research you will understand that nearly every thing said in this thread is inaccurate. Thanks chives for taking the time to cover some of it in depth. PS what are you working on lately?
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Most people, I affectionately call sheeople , who dont write any code, don't support him and bad mouth him. Usually the facts are lost on this bunch.
that's cool man, call me a sheeple all you want, but the facts are not lost on me; I don't write code, I support what geo is doing (to an extent), and I still reserve the right to bad mouth him if I feel like it. he made himself the martyr in exchange for notoriety and I don't feel bad for him at all in that respect. I fully understand the potential impact of the whole situation, however I think that many people forget that their personal perception of the laws that pertain to what is happening is irrelevant. I also think that a great deal of people involved in the scene have some serious double standards (I'm guilty of it and I admit it) take geo himself for example:
"That's exactly [...] what I don't want," Hotz said. "I don't want people making money off this." He said that about releasing the first jailbreak. Yet he traded that first iphone for a car and cash... he constantly tells people not to donate to devs, yet posts links for donations to himself and his legal fund... OK, so what he should have said was "I don't want other people making money off of this..."
how are people supposed to trust and want to support an individual who clearly is full of not just himself, but also full of :censored:?
Im guessing the second group is making the assumption that some one else will step up and release code for them. But the reality is its still about 3% of the population who CAN reverse tech . There has been no giant explosion of people who can do this, more its been an explosion of people who can being willing to take credit for their work.
to be honest I could really care less... I don't own a PS3 and wouldn't run CFW on it even if I did; I don't run CFW on my PSP (I barely use the damn thing); I don't run CFW on my 360s; sure I jailbreak my iphone, but I could live without it.
there has never been a large number of people with the ability to do what some people can do (or claim to be able to do), but I have no pity for people who bring things on themselves. everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free. if you get into something as popular as say iphone jailbreaking and you come out with a jailbreak or unlock and offer it to people for free then don't whine and complain when the hordes come down on you for an update or whatever... what did you think 'the scene' was going to change just for you? that you're special and things should be different cause it's you? get off the high horse, be prepared to either deal with those idiots or ignore them.
This topic really frustrates me. I think I could spend the entire day disproving each of your arguments line by line. And whats worse is the only reason you dont know is you didnt bother to ask.
1. What are Geohots true accomplishments?
2. What contests has he won?
3. What national publications have recognized him?
4. What did Geohot say his feelings on piracy are?
5. How can geohot be responsible for others actions.
1. that all depends on what accomplishments you consider to actually be his, and what you want to consider an accomplishment. just because you are given credit for something doesn't mean you deserve it.
2. again, what do you consider a 'contest'? He won a scholarship and an internship.
3. many have, though not all recognition is good recognition or deserved recognition.
4. anyone who knows anything about the whole situation knows that his public stance on piracy is that he is against it. however I don't always believe people when they say things like that, every frigging 'hacker' out there states that as their believed 'catch-all safety net disclaimer clause', just cause you say it doesn't make it true.
5. he's not, he's responsible for his own actions. He's not being blamed for being a pirate, or for pirating anything, he's being blamed for opening pandora's box...
I can't justify copy/pasting the facts from google here. When and if you guys do some research you will understand that nearly every thing said in this thread is inaccurate. Thanks chives for taking the time to cover some of it in depth. PS what are you working on lately?
Maybe you should next time, if you're going to espouse that there are certain 'facts' that people ignore and should know, then :censored:ing take the 30 seconds to copy/paste them from where ever or don't mention them. back yourself up in an argument or don't make the argument at all. If you're going to claim inaccuracy then you need to prove otherwise or don't make the claim, simply stating something is inaccurate doesn't make it so.
Actually, coding wise, I'm still learning. outside of that, I'm not allowed to run off the laundry list of projects I'm working on personally and collaborating on, but I'd put that number at roughly a dozen projects right now... most of them are fairly simple, and some aren't even electronics based.
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Ive noticed a trend.
Any one who has written and released any thing, for any thing supports geohot to some varying degree. They know more of the facts of how this when down and understand that something so simple as painting your case could be impacted by this.
WOW XsavioR you know the sad part is most people will read this and think you and I are crazy, but that is exactly what could happen if Sony gets their way!!! An I have been on the forums and read most peoples comments and I have read all the dockets and crap that has been posted on Groklaw..
I pray that Geohot wins this case and all the the other cases that will come after this one.. Because as a modder and a security minded person I realize that Sony winning this case will affect my love for tinkering and breaking the TOYS that I own.
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sure I jailbreak my iphone, but I could live without it.
there has never been a large number of people with the ability to do what some people can do (or claim to be able to do), but I have no pity for people who bring things on themselves. everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free.
That's every scene!!!
UPDATE::::
AH HELL LOOK HERE!!! http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/11/scea-vs-geohot-sony-wins-a-not-quite-flawless-victory/ (http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/11/scea-vs-geohot-sony-wins-a-not-quite-flawless-victory/)
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That's every scene!!!
that's why I made no mention of a specific scene and used a generalization, they're all the same in that respect...
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as for the new outcome of the sony vs. geohot battle, that's not the outcome people wanted, but it's not exactly a bad one...
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Hey no new laws will be passed..... I can still crack my devices and paint my cases :D :#1:
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yeah its good that no new laws have been passed in sonys defence but bad that they didnt loose either
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So basically, this has just concluded with the result i expected. No one won, which means we lost a chance to enforce our rights. I honestly dont blame him for how this was handled.
He asked for donations so he could fight our fight properly. Not so he could hack things. Thats the difference.
"everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free."
+ and then trash talks them not knowing half the facts, or acting oblivious to them.
Now answer 1 2 and 3 about your self. Point and case eh? Not trying to be a duche and make personal attacks, but i figure since I didnt feel that I measured up in comparison its fair to say in good conscious .
Im happy to debate informed opinions. I am not going to sit and make charts proving what is common sense that Piracy does not raise costs of games. Greed makes them stay at 60 $ . etc
@lordnico sadly some of us do realize this was a win for geohot , not really for us. Its nothing to hold against him, but this would have been better for freedom if he had had more support to win this instead of walk away from it. But that said im really thankful he was able to walk away from it he has to much potential to waste like this.
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cheers to everyone who took part in this discussion, it may not look like it, but for the most part we all share similar values on the topic and that is that piracy is bad and hurts the industry we love. however I hope that people see the impact that courts and laws could potentially impart on this industry, and consider what will be gained or lost by putting a baindaide on something the manufacturers need to perform major surgery on.
A bandaide like hazer brought up, with gun control and the background check for a handgun, unfortanately a background check does not keep guns out of criminals hands. Second hand sales from citizens to citizen are not regulated therefore guns and crime will not suffer becuase of said check. In reality the background check just makes the black and second hand markets more lucritive. There is little parrallel to be drawn from this to the topic on hand, unless you look at the outcome and what kind of bandaide is produced by this court case... whatever it is, i can garunteed a court produced bandaide will make things worse, and you will see the black market become more lucrative. It is said you cannot change human behavior by making laws in a free society, history shows this over and over again. We need surgery not bandaides.
Fundamentally the console makers are asking for this kind of abuse for their systems with their 10 year life cycles, and their lack of support for system repurposing and homebrew. Im not saying it is right, I am just saying that the burden lies on them to curtail as much of this as possible and suing kids in court is not taking your burden very seriously. 10 years is long time to expect your system to remain closed and keep people out legitamate purpose or not. does sony and M$ honestly think that 10 year old tech is going to hold up against todays youth and hackers? I would hope not, but then again I am just a person and dont pocess the power of the almighty corporation who has the courts as their tools to fight with.
hopefully some of this discussion (on or off topic) will land on the ears of the youth in the world, and they can see the implications that a court case like this can have on your everyday life, whether good or bad it is hard to see the whole picture, but please try.
AND for gods sake pay attention in history class, it is important, and is a great forcaster for cases like these. If you do not understand history we are bound to repeat it, and crap like this will not just float down river like it seems to have in this case... there is more crap coming and real decisions will still have to be made.
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So basically, this has just concluded with the result i expected. No one won, which means we lost a chance to enforce our rights. I honestly dont blame him for how this was handled.
He asked for donations so he could fight our fight properly. Not so he could hack things. Thats the difference.
I think over all this was a decent outcome as no new precedence has been set one way or the other, status quo ante. I don't blame him for settling for a permanent injunction and basically getting off scot-free. he didn't ask for donations to "fight 'our' fight properly" he asked for it so he didn't have to incur the full expense of fighting his battle. yes, that's right, he got himself into the mess and no one asked him to stand up and make the fight for a legal precedence. How do the sayings go? oh that's right: 'if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime' and 'take personal responsibility for your own actions'...
"everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free."
+ and then trash talks them not knowing half the facts, or acting oblivious to them.
and wtf does that prove? other than the fact that you're able to take a quote out of context and draw random conclusions about said out of context quote?
you keep talking about these so-called 'facts' but you never actually put forth any 'facts'. put on your big-boy pants and back yourself with these 'facts' or go back and hide in your hole.
Now answer 1 2 and 3 about your self. Point and case eh?
first off no one cares.
second it's "case in point" not "point and case". if you don't know the proper phrase and how to properly use it, then don't use it.
third all the same answers I gave for him apply to myself (except #3); it depends on what you consider an accomplishment, it depends on what you consider a contest (I also won a scholarship when I was in HS, though not $20k it was more like $2-3k; and I 'won' an internship too, not with google, but then again companies like google were nearly non-existent when I was a kid), it depends on what you consider a 'national publication' nowadays. see you can qualify just about anyone with those kinds of questions.
Im happy to debate informed opinions. I am not going to sit and make charts proving what is common sense that Piracy does not raise costs of games. Greed makes them stay at 60 $ . etc
no one asked you to make charts, and I'm not talking about piracy raising game costs. I'm talking about the legality of the issues.
now, if you want to talk about debating informed opinions, just because an opinion is not the same as yours does not make it uninformed, it just makes it different. and if you view it as uninformed then inform the person who you feel is uninformed otherwise you really don't want to debate informed opinions you're just an arrogant ass who wants to remain superior in their own mind..
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cheers to everyone who took part in this discussion, it may not look like it, but for the most part we all share similar values on the topic and that is that piracy is bad and hurts the industry we love.
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hopefully some of this discussion (on or off topic) will land on the ears of the youth in the world, and they can see the implications that a court case like this can have on your everyday life, whether good or bad it is hard to see the whole picture, but please try.
AND for gods sake pay attention in history class, it is important, and is a great forcaster for cases like these. If you do not understand history we are bound to repeat it, and crap like this will not just float down river like it seems to have in this case... there is more crap coming and real decisions will still have to be made.
well said.
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Fair enough, Ive been busy working on a project. I have probably explained the same things 25 times this week at other places, and was really surprised to see it here. And dont get me wrong, I didnt mean to offend any one with the ask the same of your self comment. It just really seemed like you missed the fact that hes still a kid.
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@lordnico sadly some of us do realize this was a win for geohot , not really for us. Its nothing to hold against him, but this would have been better for freedom if he had had more support to win this instead of walk away from it. But that said im really thankful he was able to walk away from it he has to much potential to waste like this.
Did you think that he could have ever won outright? If you read the dockets you would have realized from the start that this was going to be an uphill battle and I hate to say it, but unless he had an air tight case from start to finish it would have been nearly imposable. Had he lost, it would have legally set a precedence that would have hurt the modding and security scenes not to mention others, as well as justified the search that Sony did to obtain peoples information on youtube, geohot, twitter etc..
Sorry but it was a gross misuse of the legal system on Sony's part. I hope that information gathering like that does not become the norm now for the next guy that gets sued by some corporation ... however since the case was settled outside of the court it may lessen that impact but I hope people and the EFF lobby to ensure that no company can ever do that again..
I think over all this was a decent outcome as no new precedence has been set one way or the other, status quo ante. I don't blame him for settling for a permanent injunction and basically getting off scot-free. he didn't ask for donations to "fight 'our' fight properly" he asked for it so he didn't have to incur the full expense of fighting his battle. yes, that's right, he got himself into the mess and no one asked him to stand up and make the fight for a legal precedence. How do the sayings go? oh that's right: 'if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime' and 'take personal responsibility for your own actions'...
You should have CAPPED and BOLD the our in "fight 'our' fight properly" to drive that point home!
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God Bless Anonymous.
They give me hope, there have good intentions, but have done wrong things.
They are masters of Computing and One day I hope they hack the world with there endless intelligence unless they have a relation with the CIA or Illuminati :Censored: ING stop playing hacking games you 12yr old . They make me think that there some characters from the Matrix.
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God Bless Anonymous.
They give me hope, there have good intentions, but have done wrong things.
They are masters of Computing and One day I hope they hack the world with there endless intelligence unless they have a relation with the CIA or Illuminati :Censored: ING stop playing hacking games you 12yr old . They make me think that there some characters from the Matrix.
really? good intentions? fighting illegal activity with illegal activity is not good intentions, nor is DDoSing a company just cause you don't like their policies... their intentions are self serving at best. and "masters of computing?" I wouldn't consider a few guys who can't even conceal themselves from law enforcement and get arrested for participating in DDoS attacks to be 'masters of computing'... I'd call them idiots.
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At this point in time i really do not care what happens to those hackers anymore because they are all full of themselves as some of you already said plus Sony and the hackers are greedy mofo's who want all but attention and money. Anon is a bunch of basement nerds with no job who think its the right thing to do to stand up for authority and rebell using illegal tactics because they think they will get away with it.(they probably will but i doubt it will work).
Laws that get set in to place about copyright could potentially take customers away from sony/microsoft etc...
Also programmers/software engineers/hardware engineers are in disbelief that their system gets hacked because "they know everything" therefore its impossible to hack. as chives said, 10 years to keep a system secure is tough because of the speed of technology and power increases every year. So when a system gets hacked the developers get all pissy and sue everybody because they're scared the console will not sell anymore because of hacks haha.
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well i agre with jrfhoutx about annonymus. they are truely a sad peace of nerds in ther basement who dont know anything to do besides DoS. sad.
and well said chives802 :#1:
i was looking foward for a positive outcome. but i guess it seems that hotz just gave up and have in.
can anyone explain what his "permanent injunction" geohot has ? does this mean he cant touch or hack any of their products? lol well atleast he cant gave a ego for the ngp. lol
"Also programmers/software engineers/hardware engineers are in disbelief that their system gets hacked because "they know everything" therefore its impossible to hack. as chives said, 10 years to keep a system secure is tough because of the speed of technology and power increases every year. So when a system gets hacked the developers get all pissy and sue everybody because they're scared the console will not sell anymore because of hacks haha."
hum, dude its not that these people think there product is uncrackable, its just that there is more that one department crating these product in chunks. and usually the miss-comunication of these departments are what can cause a security hole.
a rule of thumb... if its coded by man it can be cracked by man.
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I agree 10 years is a long time to keep a system secure, especially considering that the tools needed (especially on the hardware end) to do so come down in price over the course of the system's life and make them more readily available to people with the knowledge and ability to use them.
The permanent injunction basically means he's permanently restricted from distributing or providing access to, in any way shape or form, the tools and information he used to circumvent the security measures in place on the console. yes the cat is kinda out of the bag, but he's most likely not allowed to post any information about the system, post links to any information regarding the system and it's security, and most likely not allowed to give lectures on it's operation or implementation of circumventing those security measures. other than that he's off the hook pretty much...
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can anyone explain what his "permanent injunction" geohot has ? does this mean he cant touch or hack any of their products? lol well atleast he cant gave a ego for the ngp. lol
According to to public settlement he can no longer hack, engage or promote any hacking of ANY SONY PRODUCT!
Also I'm not sure he fully lost here but only time will tell.... Has anyone read this?http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110411173644425 (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110411173644425)
Hope my link works sorry I'm in my iPad.
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A bandaide like hazer brought up, with gun control and the background check for a handgun, unfortanately a background check does not keep guns out of criminals hands. Second hand sales from citizens to citizen are not regulated therefore guns and crime will not suffer becuase of said check. In reality the background check just makes the black and second hand markets more lucritive. There is little parrallel to be drawn from this to the topic on hand, unless you look at the outcome and what kind of bandaide is produced by this court case... whatever it is, i can garunteed a court produced bandaide will make things worse, and you will see the black market become more lucrative. It is said you cannot change human behavior by making laws in a free society, history shows this over and over again. We need surgery not bandaides.
Ah. But applying this analogy to the context, Geohot dumped millions of guns smack dab in the middle Miama, with a big neon sign saying "take them but dont shoot them at people becuase I dont like load noises". What a :censored:ing hypocryte.
Here is something even closer to home: [Sarcasm] Hey everyone, please take my opensource code and please, please, PLEASE dont use it online. I even shared the COD patch with everyone (its only useful online) but please dont use opensource rapidfire online as its naughty naughty naughty. [/Sarcasm] I would be a straight bald faced liar if I said my intentions were not to have rapidfire used online. If I really want rapidfire to stay offline, I would NEVER HAVE MADE IT PUBLIC. My little tiny contribution is not even a pimple on the ass of what Geo and other have done. If they were so against piracy, they would have kept things under wraps. They all know full well the fallout of thier actions, and they deserve what they get when big brother comes looking.
Oh yes, since I am ignorant about the 'scene', can someone please tell me what the scope of 'our fight' is? I mean, be more specific. Run linux on proprietary box? Really? Can you not run linux elsewhere? Is there no better and cheaper hardware to do this on? This sounds sarcastic (it is a little) but I really truly dont understand and want a good response. I can get the idea if its the fun of accomplishing it, but does it have to be public? Hell my Wii is borderline illegal, and I keep debating wether to release the code for the LCD only to keep telling myself "nope, it takes 3 lines of extra code to run backups, I cannot release this publically".
I purchased my XBOX1 to play games. Yes, I can hack it to play DVDs, avis, mp3s, yada yada yada. I can open it up to do other coding crap too. But why? I would rather have quality stand-alone systems to perform these functions. Its like downgrading the system, not making it better. Taking a desoldering iron and aquarium pump to make a $12 hot-air rework station is impressive, you make something better than what you started with. Putting a PIC and an LCD into a $30 toaster oven to do SMD profile reflow, thats impressive. Taking an Ipad and programming it to show a slide-show of jpgs and hanging it on your wall permanently, thats just plain dumb.
So, I endorse case-modding. I even endorse hacking the firmware to do something unique for your personal enjoyment and to showcase the end effect to show your hard work. I do not endorse the public release of firmware hacking purley of the intention of 'I will show you Sony, I am elite hacker".
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Every person is not alike - this is a good thing, it's what separates and distinguishes us as individuals. I will never define myself as the lack of attributes. "I'm not like ~~~~~~", "I don't ~~~~~~" etc.
I'm in full support of the class action lawsuit against Sony - they advertised a product that ^quote^ Only Does EVERYTHING ^/quote^, and then they remove something shortly after. Sony advertised a product that was not JUST a console, but was a computer entertainment system and then, they remove the computer aspect.
OtherOS was removed for no reason. I personally feel they removed it after initial sales to get their initial sales higher than standard with a new release profit margin. OtherOS isn't a loaded gun in Miami - it's just a computer that did EVERYTHING, but now, it does everything BUT. There's no security risk between PS3s OS and anyOtherOS either, so why WOULD Sony do that to it's customers?
Do I know George? No, I'd be lying if I did. I don't know if he beats his dog or if he sends his mother roses on her birthday - so I have nothing I can honestly say without lying. I hope he doesn't beat his dog, and I think that'd be marvelous if he sent his mother roses on her birthday, but unless I face to face hear from him, I don't know him from Sally. By all means - if anyone else knows him better than I do, please - speak up, but until that happens, it's just talking **** behind his back.
I can't talk for anyone else but myself - but do you know what I'd love to do with a PS3 that has OtherOS support? Throw a fliptop LCD on it and have be a nonbattery laptop I can take with me on the job to a client's house, network boot off of it and do whatever work I need to on the clients machine. Can I use another laptop to that? Sure - but why - I've got a machine that costs hundreds of dollars (day one retail dollars at that) that was advertised to be able to handle such a feat. Now, I HAVE to use a laptop, and it's far from having the same guts as a PS3.
That's a single scenario. Nuclear family is two.five children, stay at home mom and a working dad. A PS3 was advertised to be able to take the place of a computer and a gaming system, and now - it's just an overpriced gaming system for two.five kids, a mother who can't use it when dad's at work and the dad has to come up with extra money to get another machine to do what the PS3 was advertised to do. Final score - at least twice the cost.
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I agree, when I bough the system at 600 bucks I was like EVERYTHING WOO lol. And at the time it was a all in one device. Sure u can buy a 500 dollar pc and do that too. But what would be a great device which u can say it looks clean on your living room, has hdmi, blueray, a great cell processor, play my ps1,2,3 games, will not overheat like a 360, has a free network? Well at the time I bought it there was nothing else like it, and this was advertised along side. And my love for it started fading away, until a Sony firmware caused it to take away OtherOS, and have a fan cycle reduction which cause it to overheat and ylod. (that was Sony saying , go buy another one!" so I gave it to RDC and he was going to Shove a 360 inside that shell. Lol
I believe the reason why the "say" they took it away now is that they received a call from IBM saying there losing the us militaty As a client for the cluster computing of a ps3. Just an excuse to get out of there class action lawsuit, but we will have to see how this plays out ...
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And I once bough a xbox 1 from some guy for 8 bucks because it did not turn on. I opened it up and it had a mod chip, the only problem was that it had one burned wire. So I resodered it and turn it into a settop box with xbmc. I was able to play snes games watch my revision 3 shows. Watch my media from iTunes and do much more.(upnp, smb, FTP, u name it it had it) I never pirated a dam game. I don't like xbox much rather with there controllers. This was my solution for a good hack of a console. It was truly perfect, even with it's component cables and optical out, great 8 dollar investment ever. XD my point is that sometimes hack can renew old hardware.
One Q why does AM sell modchips? Or jags or something like that. (not quite familiar with 360)
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ok first if you downloaded and used ROMs then yes, you pirated a game. there is not a single video game ever produced that is not still protected by it's copyright (copyrights are valid for 75 years from the first publication date, in most cases).
second, the shop doesn't sell modchips. the shop sells development tools...
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Oh yes, since I am ignorant about the 'scene', can someone please tell me what the scope of 'our fight' is? I mean, be more specific. Run linux on proprietary box? Really? Can you not run linux elsewhere? Is there no better and cheaper hardware to do this on? This sounds sarcastic (it is a little) but I really truly dont understand and want a good response. I can get the idea if its the fun of accomplishing it, but does it have to be public?
The scope of our scene is freedom of information, and freedom to do what we wish with what we own (within the law). Imagine if you could be persecuted for your Wii mod? Seems rediculous but this is really about your wii mod and your right to do it. Just like you said your mod is 3 lines away from being able to break the law, we want to make sure that someday your mod isnt 2 lines over breaking the law. hacking is to modding as porno is to free speach... with persecution for hacking makes modding vulnerable, just as censorship makes free speech vulnerable.
The free gun sign in miami is a bit over the top, I would liken what Geo did more to bringing a load of guns to a gun bazaar in afghanistan (see vice guide to travel). See you give the average human being more credit then is due, it is true that the tech savvy middle schooler could hack a ps3 with what geo made public and download or rip games, however it is not something every middle schooler could do, not to mention an adult. I would guess that 99% of adults would not be able to accomplish at least one piece that is involved in running pirated software on a PS3, whether it be using a computer or gathing the required files, or burning a blue ray. Whoever is taking the guns from geohot went to the seedy end of town looking for them, they did not simply come across it in their mommy and me forums :)
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Is the video fake ?
I mean did everyone's ps3 suddenly view this message
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View what message?
Video's not fake, it's on Anon's "press release style" site.
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ahh i just said i was able to play snes, not actusly have it., plus i dont think i would be cable to connect so many systems to my tv, so it was just a inconvenience, plus, i never played a xbox 1 game ever. it was just a settop box. ... so no pirating! OK! all this old technology was to steam content from my favorite online tv shows. (by the way revision3 is a great online tv shows)
@ jrfhoutx now i just feel like your picking on me man. every comment i make,u find something to argue, something back to say. i was just saying that hacking can also bring new life to old stuff man!
and again, doesn't your argument say that "development tools" are just an excuse for common people to pirate man? i dont mean to start a argument but isnt that being a hypocrite(not you dude, just in general)? a while ago AM was selling "development tool" for the ps3 which was just a copy board that can be flashed with psgroove which was a "jailbreak" for the ps3. sooo.... idk?
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Is the video fake ?
I mean did everyone's ps3 suddenly view this message
LOL, did you actually just ask that?
@ jrfhoutx now i just feel like your picking on me man. every comment i make,u find something to argue, something back to say. i was just saying that hacking can also bring new life to old stuff man!
Isnt that the point of a debate/argument?
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i agree, but instead of thew topic one attacks different statements i make. again im against piracy too, but all i said that there is some positive outcomes of hacking a old counsle. it was not i guess a debatable statement, just a personal experience.
again can anyone explain why AM had the dam ps3 modchips, or jailbreak... (you might say it was just for "development tools" but bull :censored:! )
again i have much respect for you hyper999,because of you i started loving these online communities and how helpful they are.
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well tbh AM shop isnt really much to do with any members here apart from Kingmike and Robin, but they aren't selling the PS3 mod-chip they are selling a development board and if someone else outside of AM has released an open-source code for that micro-controller its nothing to do with us.
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ahh i just said i was able to play snes, not actusly have it., plus i dont think i would be cable to connect so many systems to my tv, so it was just a inconvenience, plus, i never played a xbox 1 game ever. it was just a settop box. ... so no pirating! OK! all this old technology was to steam content from my favorite online tv shows. (by the way revision3 is a great online tv shows)
@ jrfhoutx now i just feel like your picking on me man. every comment i make,u find something to argue, something back to say. i was just saying that hacking can also bring new life to old stuff man!
and again, doesn't your argument say that "development tools" are just an excuse for common people to pirate man? i dont mean to start a argument but isnt that being a hypocrite(not you dude, just in general)? a while ago AM was selling "development tool" for the ps3 which was just a copy board that can be flashed with psgroove which was a "jailbreak" for the ps3. sooo.... idk?
1. the way you stated what you did with the box implied that you did actually play SNES on it, I simply picked at the wording involved.
2. I'm not picking on you I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency and contradiction in saying that one has never pirated a game, but possesses ROMs (because unless one has the necessary hardware to make those ROM copies themselves, they had to have been obtained illegally).
4. I agree, hacking can bring new life to old equipment, I've never argued against or disagreed with that point.
5. No I don't think that's what my argument was about, I mean yes I made the point that he knew that by releasing his tools people would use them in a way he hadn't intended and pirate, but that was hardly my entire argument.
6. I don't sell a damn thing in the store, so how does that make me a hypocrite? I don't own the place, and I don't sell stuff through it, and I don't see a dime from it, so I don't see how that would make me a hypocrite. As for in general, I still don't see how selling development hardware and being against piracy is hypocritical.
7. the specific development tool you speak of has far more uses than just to be a PSGroove clone, just because you're limited in your thinking of what it can be used for doesn't mean that is it's only use.
i agree, but instead of thew topic one attacks different statements i make. it was not i guess a debatable statement, just a personal experience.
again can anyone explain why AM had the dam ps3 modchips, or jailbreak... (you might say it was just for "development tools" but bull :censored:! )
Umm... breaking down ones statements as legitimate or not is a debate tactic. by punching holes in the logic of a statement or showing its invalidity it breaks down the argument.
All statements can be debated.
they were for sale because it is a store and it caters to supply and demand for merchandise. call BS all you want but they are clearly sold as development tools and are not alluded to any specific use, they aren't even in the PS3 section, they have their own categories.
they aren't selling the PS3 mod-chip they are selling a development board and if someone else outside of AM has released an open-source code for that micro-controller its nothing to do with us.
^this...
OK, now I'm going to go pay attention to the far more intriguing OtherOS class action suit; which is actually about getting back the linux capability that you talk about so often (not a pissing contest between a kid and a corporation over encryption keys) and actually has a decent chance of succeeding (as it's kinda making SCEA look stupid) and actually setting a precedence for what can and can not be done with firmware updates...
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LOL, did you actually just ask that?
Isnt that the point of a debate/argument?
Its a discussion not a argument or a debate.
Does anyone no where I can go to join anonymous.
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Its a discussion not a argument or a debate.
Does anyone no where I can go to join anonymous.
I disagree. Now we are having an argument as there is disagreement involved.
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people in over their heads should keep their mouths shut so they don't drown...
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All respect to u man. But isnt that the same argument that other people are saying about geohot? "Here are the tools but dont use them to pirate" some of you said that.
But itsnt it the same as saying " here is a 18f dev kit, but dont go around flahing it to pirate" idk but it seems quite similar. Also. For a dam 18f minimalistic clone which only has a usb connector doesnt it imply that its just a can clone like all other clones.
Plus people in ps3 have pirated before cfw came out. I use a cfw that its called "rebug dev" which is to dev. Unlike the rest that pirate. And i dont believe that this is illegal
1, sorry if i worded wrong. No i dint play those roms. Hut just a pocibility.
2 i spesificly said u wasnt talking about u when i said hipocrie
&3 im not the best written debator or the champ of my clas. Just a person who writes code and has a opinion.
But thats just my 2 lincons lol
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I wholly agree that the GeoHot stuff doesn't apply to anyone and really isn't the topic of debate here - despite the ever so brief mention of him in the Anon release. The class action lawsuit is the meat and potatoes of what the good fight is for in the name of freedom of information.
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All respect to u man. But isnt that the same argument that other people are saying about geohot? "Here are the tools but dont use them to pirate" some of you said that.
But itsnt it the same as saying " here is a 18f dev kit, but dont go around flahing it to pirate" idk but it seems quite similar. Also. For a dam 18f minimalistic clone which only has a usb connector doesnt it imply that its just a can clone like all other clones.
No the 18f dev board is not a minimalistic clone its a dev board, for developing software for the PIC18F device platform similair to say an xbox360 dev kit only for a different platform you as a 'dev' should understand this, and no one is telling you what to put on it, it can do a great deal more than clone a jailbreak device (did someone say HID gamepad?), however you probably have only heard about the jailbreaking as this is the only open-source code for it you are interested in.
HOWEVER ALL OF THE ABOVE IS IRRELIVANT BECAUSE THE SHOP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MOST MEMBERS HERE... (especially JR)
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the board that was sold in the shop is a blank development board that was actually around before the psgroove thing and can be used for the hacking/hobbyist scene in ways other than to circumvent piracy measures. were like the gun shop in one of the previous analogys.
also i hope the otherOS class action suite wins.
as for joining anonymous they are an unorganised anonymous group who dont meet with each other and there "cruisades" so to speek come from them chatting on IRC and some of them agreeing to do something about there views. there is no set structure to them or a sign up sheet.
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well the minimalistic bard that ive seen in the shop is too small do do a actual work other than a usb keyboard siffer or anything requirement of a computer.
hyper999 i have full respect for you. but what i was talking about in the other topic.
you are assuming i only hear of dev boards for jailbreak before? dont assume that. yes i dev, but moslty just software and not actual pics or chips. my specialty is mostly security not these def boards. so plesase dont assume that i was only interested just because if this. ---"however you probably have only heard about the jailbreaking as this is the only open-source code for it you are interested in. "---
now i understand that AM shop has nothing to do with the actual forum.
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well the minimalistic bard that ive seen in the shop is too small do do a actual work other than a usb keyboard siffer or anything requirement of a computer.
Too small for you to do actual work on maybe, but I could quite easily use that to prototype perhaps a USB>RS232 converter, a game pad, a keyboard.... (this list could go on all day)
What I meant about you being a dev is that you should be able to understand the concept of a "dev kit".
And I would argue against the rest of your post, however I am unable to decipher it...
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thank you man out of all people i had respect for you 100% but ok man. yes i know, english is not my first language so i can not wirte correctly. i do understand the concept of a dev kit. but as many people may use these the wrong way.
i undertand what your saying.. its kool man..
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anyone else notice that this topic kinda went off topic for the longest time? And that alot of ppl made a big deal out of nothing?
Plain and simply put: Ppl will ALWAYS find ways to hack/mod their systems and ppl will ALWAYS argue about what is the right thing and the wrong thing.
And yes what Anonymous is doing is illegal but saying that it is isnt going to stop them from doing it will it?
Idk about everyone else but to me it seems like a complete waste of time to sit there and argue the same point that have always been argued time and time again!
It truly doesn't matter what other ppl think because ppl will always do what they want to do and what they believe they should do weather it's right or wrong.