trackball reality

[kink192]

ok as some of you may know, ive been planning on putting a trackball into a xbox controller, well with the help of Ryan0, and a few others this is becoming more of a reality.

due date for start:next weekend (3rd through 5th of october)
goal:replace the right analog stick with a trackball from a mouse
reason:i feel that it will allow for better accuracy, easier movement, and especially for games like halo and COD more freedom while aiming.



image stolen from trackballer.com^^

this should be all internal, using an opto-mechanical trackball.

stay tuned for updates.

update: i started working on removing the analog stick when my desoldering pump died on me...this really sucks, i opened it to clean it and something just snapped. as soon as i get the chance im going straight to radioshack to buy a new one, until then this project is one hold.

and still nameless

[zbblanton]

that looks like it well work real well.
are u going to use the infrared sensor in the mouse?

[Jumbo]

Sounds Awesome Dude!

Can't wait to see some progress!

Good Luck 

[kink192]

yes, like in the old school roller ball mice, hopefully there wont be much cosmetic work to be done, and i should be able to work on it next weekend. but until then, any ideas for a really cool name for it? i name all my mods for fun

[PspKicks316]

Trackbox controller?

[zbblanton]

Trackbox controller?

that's original lol

so how do u plan on make im very interesrted in this

[kink192]

to put it simply, im just replacing the potentiometers with the photo-resistors used in the mouse, then adapting the wheels, then the ir LED's. the photo-resistors have three leads, input,gnd,output as do the potentiometers, input,gnd,output. all i have to do is match 'em up and inside of an xbox one controller there is PLENTY of room, so space isnt an issue. the hardest part will probably be getting the wheels inside the controller and positioning the tact switch underneith the ball, other than that should be easy.

like i said, physical progress wont start til about next weekend. so keep your eyes open for any further development XP

Trackbox controller?

lil bit more original next time please, good suggestion though. lol the original name for the trackball controller was the reflex controller for ps2, that had to be the best name for it. but its already taken...

[ryan0]

hey dude,did you find the supply current of the infra-red led's?,they can be easily powered from the 5.6v point on the controller,you will have to find the perfect resistor for the job,as even a little too much current going to the infra red-led will mess with the resistance and make the thing go crazy,thanks for mentioning my name btw XD I feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

heres how the trackball works:

when the trackball is stationary,the infra red light from the led is shining through a gear with many small slits,when you are moving the  trackball in one direction the gear moves,the slits moving dampen light shining through the gear,meaning the resistance drops,when you stop moving the stick,the resistance goes back up,this is what gives it the ability to roll,unlike the psp analog stick it can reset the resistance without actually centering as the psp analog does.
I have not described how the mechanism discrimates between direction on an axis,kink you will need to pm me about this as it is vital to avoid the mixing up of the axis',i'vedrawn up a diagram to show you
ryan0

[kink192]

hey dude,did you find the supply current of the infra-red led's?,they can be easily powered from the 5.6v point on the controller,you will have to find the perfect resistor for the job,as even a little too much current going to the infra red-led will mess with the resistance and make the thing go crazy,thanks for mentioning my name btw XD I feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

heres how the trackball works:

when the trackball is stationary,the infra red light from the led is shining through a gear with many small slits,when you are moving the  trackball in one direction the gear moves,the slits moving dampen light shining through the gear,meaning the resistance drops,when you stop moving the stick,the resistance goes back up,this is what gives it the ability to roll,unlike the psp analog stick it can reset the resistance without actually centering as the psp analog does.
I have not described how the mechanism discrimates between direction on an axis,kink you will need to pm me about this as it is vital to avoid the mixing up of the axis',i'vedrawn up a diagram to show you
ryan0

yeah i was just going to go with what the mechanics provided, piece it together in my head, its going pretty well, i understand that one wheel is up down, one wheel is left right. then the corresponding photo-resistor goes along with the wheel. im going to just take it all and basically clone it into the controller. but, if it doesnt work, at all, im going to look into the full optical trackball like on the reflex controller. it would be a lot simpler but it would involve a pic, which i neither have nor really know how to program...but thats if this doesnt work.

and no problem on mentioning your name, you were the main help i got. ~highfive~

[zbblanton]

yea this is just like my virtual reality thing i made awhile back, wires the same exact way as your does.

heres the link:
https://www.acidmods.com/forum/index.php?topic=15410.0

[kink192]

perfect, that helps me out more, but right now the main concern is getting it inside. ive got a few ideas on how im going to but it involves a lot of mickey mouse-ing [local area slang] and hot glue. not going to be the best, any suggestions?

[ryan0]

btw if you want a PIC to control this with I'll do it for you no problem,but I can only write the firmware not flash the chip

[kink192]

the PIC would only be needed for the optical trackball,i dont think ill need it for this one...yet. thanks ryan, youve been a big help in this.

upon further inspection of the controller, im going to have to cut out a couple parts of the plastic.  i may also lose the black and white buttons. thats only a problem for the prototype though the final controller has relocated black and white buttons.

i want it to have a smooth feel to it, and i want it to be functional. the spot i had picked out for powering the LED puts out 5Vdc. i would probably only need a 33k resistor.

wow, imagine to flexability of having a trackball instead of a lame analog stick, you would have more accuracy, it would be ten times easier to work with, wouldnt have to worry about it being buggy at all. best of all, since im working with the analog, this means that it can be used universally with anything that has analog. imagine the possibilities.

[ryan0]

the PIC would only be needed for the optical trackball,i dont think ill need it for this one...yet. thanks ryan, youve been a big help in this.

upon further inspection of the controller, im going to have to cut out a couple parts of the plastic.  i may also lose the black and white buttons. thats only a problem for the prototype though the final controller has relocated black and white buttons.

no probs dude!this would be a good opportunity to do an r1 and l1 mod for the controller XD,what I recommend is that you don't release a prototype or even a poc,and instead unveil it in its full,finished glory,if you aren't able to get it internal then you could cut a bit out of the controller and I can show you how to mold fibreglass

[Blizzrad]

This is a cool idea, but unless I am mistaken about what you are planning, it will definitely require some additional hardware to read the pulse frequency from the photo-transistors, and translate that into an appropriate analog signal to feed the ADCs in the controller. Opto-mechanical mice do not operate on resistance like a joystick, but use rotary encoders to create electrical pulses which correspond to movements on each axis.   

There was a third party device for the Xbox and Ps2 called the SmartJoy Frag which did something similar to this. It was designed for first-person perspective games and allowed an ordinary mouse and keyboard (PS2 or USB) to be connected in place of the standard controller. It worked a bit differently in that replacing the controller entirely allowed for movement input to be digital, without having to trick the ADCs normally used for joystick input. If you can find one of these you might want to try it out with a trackball mouse.

[kink192]

oooo fiberglass. i should be able to get that at my local hardware store right? the L1 R1 has already been done and is actually mass produced by pelican, the have a certain controller, which i own one of, that has the black and white relocated. i love it. but thats what the finished product is going to be, in that controller. ill make a POC for those who are helping me out with it, like you and a few others, that way it stays in the circle.

WE STILL NEED A SUPER COOL NAME FOR THE PROJECT!!!

no suggestions are bad, none are good, some are just better. lol. anything, im more so looking for something either along the lines of unity, or accuracy.

This is a cool idea, but unless I am mistaken about what you are planning, it will definitely require some additional hardware to read the pulse frequency from the photo-transistors, and translate that into an appropriate analog signal to feed the ADCs in the controller. Opto-mechanical mice do not operate on resistance like a joystick, but use rotary encoders to create electrical pulses which correspond to movements on each axis.   

There was a third party device for the Xbox and Ps2 called the SmartJoy Frag which did something similar to this. It was designed for first-person perspective games and allowed an ordinary mouse and keyboard (PS2 or USB) to be connected in place of the standard controller. It worked a bit differently in that replacing the controller entirely allowed for movement input to be digital, without having to trick the ADCs normally used for joystick input. If you can find one of these you might want to try it out with a trackball mouse.

[since you posted this while i was typing you get an immediate reply ]
so what your saying is that this is going to be all digital and it will conflict with the analog circuitry...hmm...idk if ill have enough room in the controller for a pic board. unless i remove one of the rumble motors. i really didnt want to use a pic, i dont have a programmer or any programs to upload with. with the smartjoy frag, thats a good concept but i really dont want to replace the entire controller, maybe make a few changes but keep it all intact.

[ryan0]

I've come up with a great way to do this with the same PIC that they use in 360 rapidfire mods,some parts from digikey,its extremely small and the firmware is simple as fudge!I'll pm you with the designs once I'm done kink just need to find the places that stock the parts etc.It involves alot of thinking outside of the box XD

[kink192]

thinking outside the box is what i do best. how else would i come up with an idea like this. whatever you have in mind suggest it. im sure it will be right and possible but whether my skill level is up to it or not may delay the project.

p.s. still looking for a name guyz c'mon help out.

[zbblanton]

This is a cool idea, but unless I am mistaken about what you are planning, it will definitely require some additional hardware to read the pulse frequency from the photo-transistors, and translate that into an appropriate analog signal to feed the ADCs in the controller. Opto-mechanical mice do not operate on resistance like a joystick, but use rotary encoders to create electrical pulses which correspond to movements on each axis.   

There was a third party device for the Xbox and Ps2 called the SmartJoy Frag which did something similar to this. It was designed for first-person perspective games and allowed an ordinary mouse and keyboard (PS2 or USB) to be connected in place of the standard controller. It worked a bit differently in that replacing the controller entirely allowed for movement input to be digital, without having to trick the ADCs normally used for joystick input. If you can find one of these you might want to try it out with a trackball mouse.

the phototransitor wont conflict with the analog signal... i dont think because when i did that virtual reality thing(to lazy to finsh) it didnt effect it at all

[Blizzrad]

the phototransitor wont conflict with the analog signal... i dont think because when i did that virtual reality thing(to lazy to finsh) it didnt effect it at all

What I am saying is that the method an opto-mechanical mouse uses to detect the direction and rate of movement is not directly compatible with the way an analog joystick does this. Your head tracking demonstration (cool idea by the way) uses these same parts but in a different way.

As the encoder wheel inside a mouse spins, it interrupts the light path between the LED and phototransistor in rapid intervals which create pulses from the phototransistor. These pulses are interpreted by a microcontroller so that the speed of cursor movement is determined by their frequency. When the wheel stops, the pulses stop, and so does the cursor, regardless of it's location on the mousepad. Direction is determined by placing a second phototransistor out of phase with the first one on each axis.

An analog joystick works by using potentiometers to vary the amount of current reaching an ADC depending on the position of the stick. Rate of movement is determined by how far the stick moves from it's center point, or dead zone. Unlike the mouse, the joystick needs to be centered for movement to stop. So essentially the problem is how to interface a digital device with an analog device that operates on different principles. It is entirely possible, but additional hardware will be required. It sounds like ryan0 has got some interesting ideas for this.

I mentioned looking at the SmartJoy Frag earlier because it demonstrates another tricky part of this type of mod, which is making it work with console games that were designed for joystick control. Even with hardware designed specifically for interfacing a mouse, the SmartJoy Frag yielded very inconsistent results and only worked well with a handful of games due to the fact that most games put a slight acceleration/delay on movement. This can make aiming with a joystick more comfortable but throw a mouse or trackball all out of whack. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done to fix this, short of altering the game code. This could help to troubleshoot calibration of your trackball by trying it with games that work well with the Frag first, (I think Halo 2 was one.)

[zbblanton]

that makes perfect sense. so it seems like this mod will take alot more then i thought it would.

[ryan0]

lol guys you need to learn to think outside of the box XD;)

[kink192]

ryan0's right, just because it seems unlikely doesnt mean its not doable, blizzard said its completely doable. and i dont think i can get my hands on a smart joy just yet, my moneys split between this mod and my girlfriend so its kinda tight for misc. things. but the project is on hold for now, at least until i can get a new desoldering pump.