"Anonymous" Attacks Sony

[Hazer]

First: I LOVE lively debates! I want you all to make sure I am only arguing purely for the intellectual enjoyment! This is all in good nature!

On to the rebutal:

I agree that Sony does not have the right to gain access to privat einformation. They should not be able to set this precedent.

Guns: I said people have the right to own guns. I never said they shouldnt. But since you own a 9mm, you know as well as I what it takes to legally purchase that gun: A full background check. Why is that? Why cant a dealer sell handguns to anyone who walks in? Your arguement supports that when compared to this situation (copy-right protection voilation). Dealers cannot sell to people with questionable backgrounds because it would be civily irresponsible to put a handgun in the possesion of an individual who will likely use it for illegal purposes. That dealer would be just as responsible as the person pulling the trigger. Its the same as the adult who gets a minor drunk and lets them drive a car willingly, they are also responsible for the damage coused by that minor. The same is said for a bystander who witnesses a crime and does nothing. There is a responsibility we all share as human beings to keep people from harming themselves.

If a hacker shares his knowledge with the world knowing full well it will ABSOLUTELY be used for breaking copy-right protection, then he/she is just as responsible for piracy if they had marketed it themselves. They knew full well the impact of what they did. And ALL hackers are only in it to one-up each other. There is no self-less motivation, its about showing off.

As for the impact of piracy: Dont bring PC games into this for now, that has its own market dynamic. But look at the history of piracy: Atari was hacked by elite people with breadboarded materials, only people with alot of electronics skills knew how and the information was pre-internet and not largely publicized. There was virtually no effect on the market.

The Sony PS1 was the first victim of public piracy. At this time, not many poeple knew howto program microchips and dvelopers did not release alot of public information (it was mostly sent via snail-mail, internet was still dial-up at this time). Also, at this time CD burners were first introduced and cost $500. Burnable dics were $2 a piece. This was extremely inconvenient for every PS1 owner to take advantage of. So lets look at what this cost Sony: They changed the motherboard revision 13 times in 6 years. Do you have any idea how much it costs to design a system revision, test it for durablility for at least a year, change the entire manufacturing line to accomodate a new part (manufacture, pick-and-place, test machines, all of this 20 years ago)? Tens of millions each time. I worked for a large electronics manufacturer, I am not exagerating. A bomb-scare would cause a 2 million dollar cost to production in order to shut it down for a day. Thats todays standards where the setups have been greatly improved for efficiency since the 90s. So does Sony eat these costs? Everyone thinks that the manufacturer will go out of business. No. They simply transfer the cost to the customer. If the cost to manufacture a product becomes too high, customers will not buy it and the manufacturer will simply drop the product and manufacture something else.

Yes, games cost $60 a year ago. The cost to manufacture the media also cost 5 times what it does today. Remeber, DL DVD used to be close to $8 a disc, now they are a quarter. But the games have stayed the same. There is the influence of what price the market will bear, but competition also drives prices. My first PC cost $3000 in 1992. My second PC cost me $1000 in 1996. Subsequent PCs cost me $500, $400, my last one cost me $275. So why do games stay the same? Everything else has droppe din price, even the consoles themselves come down in price (once hte manufacuring process has stablilized and improved for efficiency). Why does the game stay $60? There is so much effort put into anti-piracy, it takes too much engineering effort on a constant basis.

Your turn

[geraldrubalcava]

even though i would like to fuel this topic, i think i agree with hyper and jrfhoutx. this topic is not about piracy or the philosophy behind it. although my personal belives lies more with chives802 then with jrfhoutx.

hey hazer i love a intellectual arguments and topics too, but unfortunately jrfhoutx once believed that another previous topic was breaking one of the rules so it got . so i dont think this is a good topic to start :/

hum but i have to disagree about the part of the cost of dldvds and other such media, the actual production manufacturer will cost between 10-20 cents. the way that "official disc" are made are with a diecast were the prexi-class is coded and copied by a master disk.


"Yes, games cost $60 a year ago. The cost to manufacture the media also cost 5 times what it does today. Remeber, DL DVD used to be close to $8 a disc, now they are a quarter. But the games have stayed the same. There is the influence of what price the market will bear, but competition also drives prices. My first PC cost $3000 in 1992. My second PC cost me $1000 in 1996. Subsequent PCs cost me $500, $400, my last one cost me $275. So why do games stay the same? Everything else has droppe din price, even the consoles themselves come down in price (once hte manufacturing process has stablilized and improved for efficiency). Why does the game stay $60? There is so much effort put into anti-piracy, it takes too much engineering effort on a constant basis."

but you make a good argument u have me connvincet is some part man.

one Q tho: if he (geohot) knew he that this could cause piracy then why did he spend time just to patch lv2 to not run pirated games? i mean is like turning a fully automatic weapon in a way that it can only shoot in semi. but not all gun owners are capable of chaning it back, like a gunsmith,

this would of only benefited developers. its like sharing information, just because we know how a gun works does not mean that they should not be made, if you know what i mean? sorry if i should confusing..

[geraldrubalcava]

also this was not the first time sony has it out for hackers, they sued some collage kid that was modding a walkman into a ipod case.

they also sued some hackers that hacked a little robotic dog that sony created, which just made the doggy do different thing. after that sony setteled and agreed as long as sony had the rights to thouse peoples software.

then they got sued for theirs software they used to install in a computer whitch was a root Kit. (if anyone of you know a root kit is a no no)... i mean its a :censored:ing NO NO. over millions of computers got infected due to this software sony unconcently installed on computers to prevent "piracy". long shot shot, people won and sony had to recall all there defective CD. 

idk but if they are using every way to prevent piracy then how and who draws the line?


ALSO! i believe that anonymous DoS attacks are getting attention of international police, but not much from sony. So i guess they just run over the inovent bystandard withough even making sony flinch. :/ useless man 

[jrfhoutx]

This discussion hasn't reached the same point of stubborn heated rage that the last topic reached. the last topic that got was not a back and forth discussion, (unlike this topic) it was several people on opposite sides of the argument reiterating the same points over and over with neither side listening to or acknowledging the others points, that's not a discussion). 

And please, when I have not brought my personal opinion of piracy into this conversation, don't make a comparison of it and don't do it for me, I can speak for myself.

one Q tho: if he (geohot) knew he that this could cause piracy then why did he spend time just to patch lv2 to not run pirated games? i mean is like turning a fully automatic weapon in a way that it can only shoot in semi. but not all gun owners are capable of chaning it back, like a gunsmith,

look patched lv2 or not, he knew people would use it to pirate, otherwise he never would've patched it. by patching it he acknowledged that people would use what he was releasing in order to pirate. he's not always the brightest bulb, but not so naive as to think that no one would take his hack, tear it down and remove the lv2 patch.

its like sharing information, just because we know how a gun works does not mean that they should not be made, if you know what i mean?

Yes I know what you mean and no this is nothing like that, that's not even a valid comparison. maybe if you had said that "use of said item can lead to death, does not mean that said item should not be made :: use of said hack can lead to piracy does not mean said hack should not be made" that is a valid comparison, however the argument is still bull:censored:. it's not an argument over whether or not it should be available or not because it allows the possibility of piracy, it's a matter of whether the availability of the hack itself is legal or not. (and if you ask me that is all going to depend on the content of it)


as for the guns... anyone with an understanding of how their weapon operates and the knowledge to fully disassemble and reassemble it could turn a semiauto into an auto and vice versa (at least they should be able to, as any gun owner should know how to strip their weapon and maintain it, otherwise they really don't understand it and probably should reconsider owning it... on the other hand doing so is highly illegal and very unsafe). again, nothing like what is happening right now...

   
     So, lets find a different comparison please?


Now, back on topic... Anonymous...

Personally I say those idiots, at this point let them get arrested and file charges against them for the illegal acts they commit. what they are doing is illegal, and I for one did not ask for a bunch of pussies who have to hide behind anonymity to fight for me. pulling this crap isn't going to get them anywhere and it's not going to help geohot or the cause, if anything it's only going to hurt it. if you want to fight, then you need to man up and fight it in court, at least Geo has the balls to do that. seriously these guys need to take a few courses in logic as they seem to be incapable of it. everything they do is full of double standards, twisted logic, and ungodly arrogance.

You have abused the judicial system in an attempt to censor information about how your products work.Your suppression of this information is motivated by corporate greed and the desire for complete control over the actions of individuals who purchase and use your products, at least when those actions threaten to undermine the corrupt stranglehold you seek to maintain over copywrong, oops, "copyright".

Sony hasn't abused the judicial system, and nowhere does it say that sony has to share with anyone how their products work. to think you are owed that information or that you have a right to it or to share it with anyone is :censored:ing arrogant as hell.


Uh, yeah :censored:heads, welcome to capitalism. that's the way it :censored:ing works, they own it and have every right to protect their investment. corporate greed? yeah, have you not been paying attention your whole lives? there is no such thing as a corporation that isn't greedy.


Go back and hide in your mom's basement "Anonymous," if I want someone to "fight" for my rights I'd rather it be GeoHot, even if he is a glory-:censored:, at least he has the balls to show his face, give you his real name, and fight it the way it should be fought, in the courts and by the law. He at least give hackers a halfway decent reputation in the eyes of the general public, and doesn't resort to childish illegal tactics to fight precedence...

[FOOKz™]

well you know anonymous is just made of people and you all will agree there are people that are headstrong and think something should be one way; and one way only... If you've ever read the book called "The Jungle" which was written about meat packing in the United States in the late 1800's which the book describes how people died and got diseases and gross descriptions of unregulated meat industry back in the day.

Right now currently we are facing a similar ordeal of copyright and development issues with software and hardware. People think that if you buy the item its YOURS (well in fact i agree). When those people want something they can't have they whine about it until they get it, Dos attacks will diminish because people will get bored, more hackers will eventually find more exploits, and Sony is going to have to compromise some day. I'm just saying Sony will crack by ether the people or copyright regulation.

If a hacker blatantly publishes and exploit and shows everyone... if they get sued, its their own damn fault period.

[geraldrubalcava]

@ jrfhoutx Lol a men to that on man. XD annonymus my ass.  Hahahha


Well again I'm not woo savvy on argument sake. I just like coding and thanks to the recent jailbreak I've bin able to able to run code on my ps3. Soon I will be able to play my own cotom maps Ive made on a pc to my ps3.

Dude hackers don't care are about laws. we have a different drive. The drive to just have knowledge. It's true geohot drive must just be pure ego. But atleast he showed his gave to Cory. And even though I don't agree that he should be the face for hackers. I applaud that we atleast have one. Do u think a hacker would waste all his time just coding to let millions of people steal?. And most of you could diss on geohot or teamoverflow for even releasing their tools. But the tools were ment for developers not endusers. Yes there will always be some developers with the intent of "backups" but that's just a small portion.

 Can anyone of you go tough a system and determine were the buffer of the rrft key are in a ram and then looking tough that determine the lv2 hypervisor keys? Or can you guys  even code from scratch a way to handle a handshake of lv2 to hv0 to give full controll of both cell processors to the secondary code in order to run linux?
These guys have skills that many of you guys don't posses. bashing guys like geohot and other guys that dissreguard the law in some shape or form just for the pure pleasure of hacking is not right.



But bashing on people like anonymous, well I would prefer that they did not exist. And come on. A dam DoS attack on a website? Thats the :censored:ing 2005 . Now we are in 2011. Do some harm pisoning atack on there webties and make there dam SQL suffer until there servers clash.or even try to do something effecting there pocket book. I'f this team will get in truble well might as well make it a big deal.

[geraldrubalcava]

Idk if this is just me but I feel this conversation about hackers and law but not actualy have people talking about the topic?


Like being a elementary teacher and hearing how politicians arguing how student learn to cut the budget. It just seems werd. Lol

[jrfhoutx]

I've never said I had the skills, and no I can't pick out the buffer, or determine the hypervisor keys, but that doesn't matter tbh; and I applaud these guys and appreciate them for the skills they do posess, however, if you (or they, or whoever) have a complete disregard for the law, then you have no room to complain when it comes back and bites you in the ass.

bashing guys like geohot and other guys that dissreguard the law in some shape or form just for the pure pleasure of hacking is not right.

Like hell it's not right. you break the law you deserve the societal scorn that comes with it. if you break any other law that's what happens, society scorns you and holds it against you for the rest of your life. I broke the law when I was a kid and I was arrested and convicted, and 15 years later, even though I'm not that same person, it still follows me around and and people look down on me and judge me, but I don't about it; it was my choice and it's something that I live with. that's how society works, pressure from your peers to maintain the status quo and abide by the law; and if you don't no one lets you forget it lest you decide to regress. just because you feel that there is a grey area around a certain law does not mean there really is and does not mean you shouldn't be judged for breaking that law.


knowledge simply for the sake of knowledge is what has gotten people into this mess. just because one can doesn't mean one should...







Knowledge without conscience is but the ruine of the soule.
— François Rabelais

All knowledge has an ultimate goal. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is, say what you will, nothing but a dismal begging of the question.
— Miguel de Unamuno

"There are those who seek knowledge for the sake of knowledge; that is Curiosity.
There are those who seek knowledge to be known by others; that is Vanity.
There are those who seek knowledge in order to serve; that is Love."
— Bernard of Clairvaux

[XsavioR]

Ive noticed a trend.

Any one who has written and released any thing, for any thing supports geohot to some varying degree.  They know more of the facts of how this when down and understand that something so simple as painting your case could be impacted by this.

Most people, I affectionately call sheeople ,  who dont write any code,  don't support him and bad mouth him.  Usually the facts are lost on this bunch. 

Im guessing the second group is making the assumption that some one else will step up and release code for them. But the reality is its still about 3% of the population who CAN reverse tech .  There has been no giant explosion of people who can do this, more its been an explosion of people who can being willing to take credit for their work.

This topic really frustrates me.  I think I could spend the entire day disproving each of your arguments line by line.  And whats worse is the only reason you dont know is you didnt bother to ask.

1. What are Geohots true accomplishments?
2. What contests has he won?
3. What national publications have recognized him?
4. What did Geohot say his feelings on piracy are?
5. How can geohot be responsible for others actions.

I can't justify copy/pasting the facts from google here. When and if you guys do some research you will understand that nearly every thing said in this thread is inaccurate. Thanks chives for taking the time to cover some of it in depth.  PS what are you working on lately?

[jrfhoutx]

Most people, I affectionately call sheeople ,  who dont write any code,  don't support him and bad mouth him.  Usually the facts are lost on this bunch. 

that's cool man, call me a sheeple all you want, but the facts are not lost on me; I don't write code, I support what geo is doing (to an extent), and I still reserve the right to bad mouth him if I feel like it. he made himself the martyr in exchange for notoriety and I don't feel bad for him at all in that respect. I fully understand the potential impact of the whole situation, however I think that many people forget that their personal perception of the laws that pertain to what is happening is irrelevant. I also think that a great deal of people involved in the scene have some serious double standards (I'm guilty of it and I admit it) take geo himself for example:

 "That's exactly [...] what I don't want," Hotz said. "I don't want people making money off this." He said that about releasing the first jailbreak. Yet he traded that first iphone for a car and cash... he constantly tells people not to donate to devs, yet posts links for donations to himself and his legal fund... OK, so what he should have said was "I don't want other people making money off of this..."

how are people supposed to trust and want to support an individual who clearly is full of not just himself, but also full of ?

Im guessing the second group is making the assumption that some one else will step up and release code for them. But the reality is its still about 3% of the population who CAN reverse tech .  There has been no giant explosion of people who can do this, more its been an explosion of people who can being willing to take credit for their work.

to be honest I could really care less... I don't own a PS3 and wouldn't run CFW on it even if I did; I don't run CFW on my PSP (I barely use the damn thing); I don't run CFW on my 360s; sure I jailbreak my iphone, but I could live without it.

there has never been a large number of people with the ability to do what some people can do (or claim to be able to do), but I have no pity for people who bring things on themselves. everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free. if you get into something as popular as say iphone jailbreaking and you come out with a jailbreak or unlock and offer it to people for free then don't whine and complain when the hordes come down on you for an update or whatever... what did you think 'the scene' was going to change just for you? that you're special and things should be different cause it's you? get off the high horse, be prepared to either deal with those idiots or ignore them.

This topic really frustrates me.  I think I could spend the entire day disproving each of your arguments line by line.  And whats worse is the only reason you dont know is you didnt bother to ask.

1. What are Geohots true accomplishments?
2. What contests has he won?
3. What national publications have recognized him?
4. What did Geohot say his feelings on piracy are?
5. How can geohot be responsible for others actions.

1. that all depends on what accomplishments you consider to actually be his, and what you want to consider an accomplishment. just because you are given credit for something doesn't mean you deserve it.

2. again, what do you consider a 'contest'? He won a scholarship and an internship.

3. many have, though not all recognition is good recognition or deserved recognition.

4. anyone who knows anything about the whole situation knows that his public stance on piracy is that he is against it. however I don't always believe people when they say things like that, every frigging 'hacker' out there states that as their believed 'catch-all safety net disclaimer clause', just cause you say it doesn't make it true.

5. he's not, he's responsible for his own actions. He's not being blamed for being a pirate, or for pirating anything, he's being blamed for opening pandora's box...

 

I can't justify copy/pasting the facts from google here. When and if you guys do some research you will understand that nearly every thing said in this thread is inaccurate. Thanks chives for taking the time to cover some of it in depth.  PS what are you working on lately?

Maybe you should next time, if you're going to espouse that there are certain 'facts' that people ignore and should know, then :censored:ing take the 30 seconds to copy/paste them from where ever or don't mention them. back yourself up in an argument or don't make the argument at all. If you're going to claim inaccuracy then you need to prove otherwise or don't make the claim, simply stating something is inaccurate doesn't make it so.

Actually, coding wise, I'm still learning. outside of that, I'm not allowed to run off the laundry list of projects I'm working on personally and collaborating on, but I'd put that number at roughly a dozen projects right now... most of them are fairly simple, and some aren't even electronics based.

[l0rdnic0]

Ive noticed a trend.

Any one who has written and released any thing, for any thing supports geohot to some varying degree.  They know more of the facts of how this when down and understand that something so simple as painting your case could be impacted by this.

WOW XsavioR you know the sad part is most people will read this and think you and I are crazy, but that is exactly what could happen if Sony gets their way!!! An I have been on the forums and read most peoples comments and I have read all the dockets and crap that has been posted on Groklaw..

I pray that Geohot wins this case and all the the other cases that will come after this one.. Because as a modder and a security minded person I realize that Sony winning this case will affect my love for tinkering and breaking the TOYS that I own.

[l0rdnic0]

sure I jailbreak my iphone, but I could live without it.

there has never been a large number of people with the ability to do what some people can do (or claim to be able to do), but I have no pity for people who bring things on themselves. everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free.

That's every scene!!!

UPDATE::::

AH HELL LOOK HERE!!!  http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/11/scea-vs-geohot-sony-wins-a-not-quite-flawless-victory/

[jrfhoutx]

That's every scene!!!

that's why I made no mention of a specific scene and used a generalization, they're all the same in that respect...

[jrfhoutx]

as for the new outcome of the sony vs. geohot battle, that's not the outcome people wanted, but it's not exactly a bad one...

[l0rdnic0]

Hey no new laws will be passed..... I can still crack my devices and paint my cases

[robin1989]

yeah its good that no new laws have been passed in sonys defence but bad that they didnt loose either

[XsavioR]

So basically, this has just concluded with the result i expected.  No one won, which means we lost a chance to enforce our rights. I honestly dont blame him for how this was handled.

He asked for donations so he could fight our fight properly. Not so he could hack things. Thats the difference.

"everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free."
+ and then trash talks them not knowing half the facts, or acting oblivious to them.

Now answer 1 2 and 3 about your self.  Point and case eh? Not trying to be a duche and make personal attacks, but i figure since I didnt feel that I measured up in comparison its fair to say in good conscious .

Im happy to debate informed opinions. I am not going to sit and make charts proving what is common sense that Piracy does not raise costs of games. Greed makes them stay at 60 $ .  etc


@lordnico sadly some of us do realize this was a win for geohot , not really for us.  Its nothing to hold against him, but this would have been better for freedom if he had had more support to win this instead of walk away from it.  But that said im really thankful he was able to walk away from it he has to much potential to waste like this.

[802Chives]

cheers to everyone who took part in this discussion, it may not look like it, but for the most part we all share similar values on the topic and that is that piracy is bad and hurts the industry we love.  however I hope that people see the impact that courts and laws could potentially impart on this industry, and consider what will be gained or lost by putting a baindaide on something the manufacturers need to perform major surgery on. 

A bandaide like hazer brought up, with gun control and the background check for a handgun, unfortanately a background check does not keep guns out of criminals hands.  Second hand sales from citizens to citizen are not regulated therefore guns and crime will not suffer becuase of said check.  In reality the background check just makes the black and second hand markets more lucritive.  There is little parrallel to be drawn from this to the topic on hand, unless you look at the outcome and what kind of bandaide is produced by this court case... whatever it is, i can garunteed a court produced bandaide will make things worse, and you will see the black market become more lucrative. It is said you cannot change human behavior by making laws in a free society, history shows this over and over again.  We need surgery not bandaides.

Fundamentally the console makers are asking for this kind of abuse for their systems with their 10 year life cycles, and their lack of support for system repurposing and homebrew.  Im not saying it is right, I am just saying that the burden lies on them to curtail as much of this as possible and suing kids in court is not taking your burden very seriously.   10 years is long time to expect your system to remain closed and keep people out legitamate purpose or not.  does sony and M$ honestly think that 10 year old tech is going to hold up against todays youth and hackers? I would hope not, but then again I am just a person and dont pocess the power of the almighty corporation who has the courts as their tools to fight with.

hopefully some of this discussion (on or off topic) will land on the ears of the youth in the world, and they can see the implications that a court case like this can have on your everyday life, whether good or bad it is hard to see the whole picture, but please try.

AND for gods sake pay attention in history class, it is important, and is a great forcaster for cases like these.  If you do not understand history we are bound to repeat it, and crap like this will not just float down river like it seems to have in this case... there is more crap coming and real decisions will still have to be made.

[jrfhoutx]

So basically, this has just concluded with the result i expected.  No one won, which means we lost a chance to enforce our rights. I honestly dont blame him for how this was handled.

He asked for donations so he could fight our fight properly. Not so he could hack things. Thats the difference.

I think over all this was a decent outcome as no new precedence has been set one way or the other, status quo ante. I don't blame him for settling for a permanent injunction and basically getting off scot-free. he didn't ask for donations to "fight 'our' fight properly" he asked for it so he didn't have to incur the full expense of fighting his battle. yes, that's right, he got himself into the mess and no one asked him to stand up and make the fight for a legal precedence. How do the sayings go? oh that's right: 'if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime' and 'take personal responsibility for your own actions'...

"everyone knows what 'the scene' is like, it's a bunch of ungrateful overly demanding impatient douchebags who just want more, want it right now, and want it for free."
+ and then trash talks them not knowing half the facts, or acting oblivious to them.

and wtf does that prove? other than the fact that you're able to take a quote out of context and draw random conclusions about said out of context quote?

you keep talking about these so-called 'facts' but you never actually put forth any 'facts'. put on your big-boy pants and back yourself with these 'facts' or go back and hide in your hole.

Now answer 1 2 and 3 about your self.  Point and case eh?

first off no one cares.

second it's "case in point" not "point and case". if you don't know the proper phrase and how to properly use it, then don't use it.

third all the same answers I gave for him apply to myself (except #3); it depends on what you consider an accomplishment, it depends on what you consider a contest (I also won a scholarship when I was in HS, though not $20k it was more like $2-3k; and I 'won' an internship too, not with google, but then again companies like google were nearly non-existent when I was a kid), it depends on what you consider a 'national publication' nowadays. see you can qualify just about anyone with those kinds of questions.

Im happy to debate informed opinions. I am not going to sit and make charts proving what is common sense that Piracy does not raise costs of games. Greed makes them stay at 60 $ .  etc

no one asked you to make charts, and I'm not talking about piracy raising game costs. I'm talking about the legality of the issues.

now, if you want to talk about debating informed opinions, just because an opinion is not the same as yours does not make it uninformed, it just makes it different. and if you view it as uninformed then inform the person who you feel is uninformed otherwise you really don't want to debate informed opinions you're just an arrogant ass who wants to remain superior in their own mind..

[jrfhoutx]

cheers to everyone who took part in this discussion, it may not look like it, but for the most part we all share similar values on the topic and that is that piracy is bad and hurts the industry we love. 

...

hopefully some of this discussion (on or off topic) will land on the ears of the youth in the world, and they can see the implications that a court case like this can have on your everyday life, whether good or bad it is hard to see the whole picture, but please try.

AND for gods sake pay attention in history class, it is important, and is a great forcaster for cases like these.  If you do not understand history we are bound to repeat it, and crap like this will not just float down river like it seems to have in this case... there is more crap coming and real decisions will still have to be made.

well said.

[XsavioR]

Fair enough, Ive been busy working on a project. I have probably explained the same things 25 times this week at other places, and was really surprised to see it here.  And dont get me wrong, I didnt mean to offend any one with the ask the same of your self comment. It just really seemed like you missed the fact that hes still a kid. 

[l0rdnic0]

@lordnico sadly some of us do realize this was a win for geohot , not really for us.  Its nothing to hold against him, but this would have been better for freedom if he had had more support to win this instead of walk away from it.  But that said im really thankful he was able to walk away from it he has to much potential to waste like this.

Did you think that he could have ever won outright? If you read the dockets you would have realized from the start that this was going to be an uphill battle and I hate to say it, but unless he had an air tight case from start to finish it would have been nearly imposable. Had he lost, it would have legally set a precedence that would have hurt the modding and security scenes not to mention others, as well as justified the search that Sony did to obtain peoples information on youtube, geohot, twitter etc..

Sorry but it was a gross misuse of the legal system on Sony's part. I hope that information gathering like that does not become the norm now for the next guy that gets sued by some corporation ... however since the case was settled outside of the court it may lessen that impact but I hope people and the EFF lobby to ensure that no company can ever do that again..

I think over all this was a decent outcome as no new precedence has been set one way or the other, status quo ante. I don't blame him for settling for a permanent injunction and basically getting off scot-free. he didn't ask for donations to "fight 'our' fight properly" he asked for it so he didn't have to incur the full expense of fighting his battle. yes, that's right, he got himself into the mess and no one asked him to stand up and make the fight for a legal precedence. How do the sayings go? oh that's right: 'if you're not willing to do the time, don't do the crime' and 'take personal responsibility for your own actions'...

You should have CAPPED and BOLD the our in "fight 'our' fight properly" to drive that point home!

[techninjadude]

God Bless Anonymous.
They give me hope, there have good intentions, but have done wrong things.
They are masters of Computing and One day I hope they hack the world with there endless intelligence unless they have a relation with the CIA or Illuminati :Censored: ING stop playing hacking games you 12yr old . They make me think that there some characters from the Matrix.

[jrfhoutx]

God Bless Anonymous.
They give me hope, there have good intentions, but have done wrong things.
They are masters of Computing and One day I hope they hack the world with there endless intelligence unless they have a relation with the CIA or Illuminati :Censored: ING stop playing hacking games you 12yr old . They make me think that there some characters from the Matrix.

really? good intentions?  fighting illegal activity with illegal activity is not good intentions, nor is DDoSing a company just cause you don't like their policies... their intentions are self serving at best. and "masters of computing?" I wouldn't consider a few guys who can't even conceal themselves from law enforcement and get arrested for participating in DDoS attacks to be 'masters of computing'...  I'd call them idiots.

[FOOKz™]

At this point in time i really do not care what happens to those hackers anymore because they are all full of themselves as some of you already said plus Sony and the hackers are greedy mofo's who want all but attention and money. Anon is a bunch of basement nerds with no job who think its the right thing to do to stand up for authority and rebell using illegal tactics because they think they will get away with it.(they probably will but i doubt it will work).

Laws that get set in to place about copyright could potentially take customers away from sony/microsoft etc...

Also programmers/software engineers/hardware engineers are in disbelief that their system gets hacked because "they know everything" therefore its impossible to hack. as chives said, 10 years to keep a system secure is tough because of the speed of technology and power increases every year. So when a system gets hacked the developers get all pissy and sue everybody because they're scared the console will not sell anymore because of hacks haha.

[geraldrubalcava]

well i agre with jrfhoutx about annonymus. they are truely a sad peace of nerds in ther basement who dont know anything to do besides DoS. sad.

and well said chives802 

i was looking foward for a positive outcome. but i guess it seems that hotz just gave up and have in.

can anyone explain what his "permanent injunction" geohot has ? does this mean he cant touch or hack any of their products? lol well atleast he cant gave a ego for the ngp.  lol



"Also programmers/software engineers/hardware engineers are in disbelief that their system gets hacked because "they know everything" therefore its impossible to hack. as chives said, 10 years to keep a system secure is tough because of the speed of technology and power increases every year. So when a system gets hacked the developers get all pissy and sue everybody because they're scared the console will not sell anymore because of hacks haha."
hum, dude its not that these people think there product is uncrackable, its just that there is more that one department crating these product in chunks. and usually the miss-comunication of these departments are what can cause a security hole.


a rule of thumb... if its coded by man it can be cracked by man.

[jrfhoutx]

I agree 10 years is a long time to keep a system secure, especially considering that the tools needed (especially on the hardware end) to do so come down in price over the course of the system's life and make them more readily available to people with the knowledge and ability to use them.


The permanent injunction basically means he's permanently restricted from distributing or providing access to, in any way shape or form, the tools and information he used to circumvent the security measures in place on the console. yes the cat is kinda out of the bag, but he's most likely not allowed to post any information about the system, post links to any information regarding the system and it's security, and most likely not allowed to give lectures on it's operation or implementation of circumventing those security measures. other than that he's off the hook pretty much...

[l0rdnic0]

can anyone explain what his "permanent injunction" geohot has ? does this mean he cant touch or hack any of their products? lol well atleast he cant gave a ego for the ngp.  lol

According to to public settlement he can no longer hack, engage or promote any hacking of ANY SONY PRODUCT!

Also I'm not sure he fully lost here but only time will tell.... Has anyone read this?http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110411173644425

Hope my link works sorry I'm in my iPad. 

[Hazer]

A bandaide like hazer brought up, with gun control and the background check for a handgun, unfortanately a background check does not keep guns out of criminals hands.  Second hand sales from citizens to citizen are not regulated therefore guns and crime will not suffer becuase of said check.  In reality the background check just makes the black and second hand markets more lucritive.  There is little parrallel to be drawn from this to the topic on hand, unless you look at the outcome and what kind of bandaide is produced by this court case... whatever it is, i can garunteed a court produced bandaide will make things worse, and you will see the black market become more lucrative. It is said you cannot change human behavior by making laws in a free society, history shows this over and over again.  We need surgery not bandaides.

Ah. But applying this analogy to the context, Geohot dumped  millions of guns smack dab in the middle Miama, with a big neon sign saying "take them but dont shoot them at people becuase I dont like load noises". What a  :censored:ing hypocryte.

Here is something even closer to home: [Sarcasm] Hey everyone, please take my opensource code and please, please, PLEASE dont use it online. I even shared the COD patch with everyone (its only useful online) but please dont use opensource rapidfire online as its naughty naughty naughty. [/Sarcasm] I would be a straight bald faced liar if I said my intentions were not to have rapidfire used online. If I really want rapidfire to stay offline, I would NEVER HAVE MADE IT PUBLIC. My little tiny contribution is not even a pimple on the ass of what Geo and other have done. If they were so against piracy, they would have kept things under wraps. They all know full well the fallout of thier actions, and they deserve what they get when big brother comes looking.

Oh yes, since I am ignorant about the 'scene', can someone please tell me what the scope of 'our fight' is? I mean, be more specific. Run linux on proprietary box? Really? Can you not run linux elsewhere? Is there no better and cheaper hardware to do this on? This sounds sarcastic (it is a little) but I really truly dont understand and want a good response. I can get the idea if its the fun of accomplishing it, but does it have to be public? Hell my Wii is borderline illegal, and I keep debating wether to release the code for the LCD only to keep telling myself "nope, it takes 3 lines of extra code to run backups, I cannot release this publically".

I purchased my XBOX1 to play games. Yes, I can hack it to play DVDs, avis, mp3s, yada yada yada. I can open it up to do other coding crap too. But why? I would rather have quality stand-alone systems to perform these functions. Its like downgrading the system, not making it better. Taking a desoldering iron and aquarium pump to make a $12 hot-air rework station is impressive, you make something better than what you started with. Putting a PIC and an LCD into a $30 toaster oven to do SMD profile reflow, thats impressive. Taking an Ipad and programming it to show a slide-show of jpgs and hanging it on your wall permanently, thats just plain dumb.

So, I endorse case-modding. I even endorse hacking the firmware to do something unique for your personal enjoyment and to showcase the end effect to show your hard work. I do not endorse the public release of firmware hacking purley of the intention of 'I will show you Sony, I am elite hacker".

[DuctTapedGoat]

Every person is not alike - this is a good thing, it's what separates and distinguishes us as individuals. I will never define myself as the lack of attributes. "I'm not like ~~~~~~", "I don't ~~~~~~" etc.


I'm in full support of the class action lawsuit against Sony - they advertised a product that ^quote^ Only Does EVERYTHING ^/quote^, and then they remove something shortly after. Sony advertised a product that was not JUST a console, but was a computer entertainment system and then, they remove the computer aspect.


OtherOS was removed for no reason. I personally feel they removed it after initial sales to get their initial sales higher than standard with a new release profit margin. OtherOS isn't a loaded gun in Miami - it's just a computer that did EVERYTHING, but now, it does everything BUT. There's no security risk between PS3s OS and anyOtherOS either, so why WOULD Sony do that to it's customers?


Do I know George? No, I'd be lying if I did. I don't know if he beats his dog or if he sends his mother roses on her birthday - so I have nothing I can honestly say without lying. I hope he doesn't beat his dog, and I think that'd be marvelous if he sent his mother roses on her birthday, but unless I face to face hear from him, I don't know him from Sally. By all means - if anyone else knows him better than I do, please - speak up, but until that happens, it's just talking **** behind his back.


I can't talk for anyone else but myself - but do you know what I'd love to do with a PS3 that has OtherOS support? Throw a fliptop LCD on it and have be a nonbattery laptop I can take with me on the job to a client's house, network boot off of it and do whatever work I need to on the clients machine. Can I use another laptop to that? Sure - but why - I've got a machine that costs hundreds of dollars (day one retail dollars at that) that was advertised to be able to handle such a feat. Now, I HAVE to use a laptop, and it's far from having the same guts as a PS3.


That's a single scenario. Nuclear family is two.five children, stay at home mom and a working dad. A PS3 was advertised to be able to take the place of a computer and a gaming system, and now - it's just an overpriced gaming system for two.five kids, a mother who can't use it when dad's at work and the dad has to come up with extra money to get another machine to do what the PS3 was advertised to do. Final score - at least twice the cost.